The Loan Question Continued
“I can be someone’s and still my own.” — Shel Silverstein
I suppose I have to be a teacher because I find that I repeat myself quite often. The best writers are the ones that offer lines like above. I’ve used it more than once in this space because it packs so much into such a tiny place. It’s simple and yet more profound than probably anything I’ve ever come up with.
We’ve been talking about student loan forgiveness for a few days now. I have tons of responses on social media and here. The negative responses (mostly on social media) usually fall under two different categories. These are categories I’ve addressed before. I keep repeating myself after all.
The main word we come to in all of these discussions is the word deserve. These students don’t deserve to have their loans forgiven. They haven’t done anything to earn that. Either that or we will cite the fact that they willingly entered into this contract, so they should suffer the consequences of that decision. Of course, the mere fact of suggesting that anyone should suffer anything should make us pause. This doesn’t even mention the fact that we are making a pretty heavy assumption that students are making informed decisions when they sign these deals. We assume they know what they are getting into. If they are in dire financial straits it is probably due to the fact that their parents didn’t go to college. So, why should we expect them to automatically understand how these loans work or how to pick a major that makes sense? Middle class kids that have parents that went to college will know these things. They also will be less likely to need larger loans.
As I said in a previous piece, the idea that any of us deserves anything is presumptuous. Certainly, in a philosophical/theological sense that is definitely untrue. We don’t deserve a damn thing. However, one could claim that everyone should get a measure of human kindness. Silverstein’s quote above eloquently points out that we may think we are lone wolfing it, but all societies have a certain interconnectedness that we cannot deny. We can belong to someone else and still be our own. We can support each other and still maintain a measure of self-reliance.
We all acknowledge that the government does not have an infinite amount of cash to spend. So, when we ask the question of whether we should forgive loans we have to look at it as an investment. What do we as a society get for that? Is that enough to justify the investment? It’s a fair question especially when thrust against other opportunities where we can invest in people.
The second argument levied is why these people get assistance and not those people. Someone asked why they should forgive student loans and not cancer patients. Of course, no one bothered to consider that we could conceivably do both. Sure, it means that other things may not be funded, but opponents love to present a false choice.
People often use these two methods to avoid the hard conversations that come with living in a society. Government spending is all an investment. It is an investment that will help some people and not others. These are choices we freely make as a society. We can dodge it as long as we want, but eventually we have to face these hard choices.
I think if folks looked at the whole government budget and saw that the majority goes to the military, they wouldn’t be so upset that some student got $10K and they didn’t.
1Schilling defaulted on a $75 million loan and now complains that student debt relief is for lazy kids!
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/8/28/2119332/-He-defaulted-on-75-million-in-loans-and-now-complains-that-student-debt-relief-is-for-lazy-kids?pm_source=story_sidebar&pm_medium=web&pm_campaign=recommended
2This is a secondhand story from a tweet, so I can’t vouch for it, but sounds about right:
An indignant guy was going off on Facebook about how people should pay the money they owe.
His ex-wife showed up in the comment stream and asked about the $18K in back child support and mentioned the time he asked her to hide his car from the repo people.
3Thanks Nick. As a retired educator, I always enjoy your perspective as one currently working in that field. The loan forgiveness business is very interesting to me. I graduated from a small private college in 1969. I was determined to not be a burden on my parents, so received a scholarship, worked on campus (cafeteria) and had a job as music director in a small church. Graduated with $5000.00 debt – not a small sum in 1969. Deferred payment while I gave Uncle Sam a few years, then began my teaching career. I worked in a district that qualified for some loan forgiveness, since had NDSL (National Student Direct Loan – originally National Defense Student Loan, created after Sputnik). My loan was paid off in short order and I was debt free – at least as far as education was concerned. Move forward to 1995. As a single parent living on a teacher’s salary, I was able to see my daughter through graduation debt free from Texas A&M. The point of this narrative is that would be nigh impossible now. The legislature has largely abandoned financial support for higher education, and the student loan business is exactly that – business (scam?). Recently had lunch with a former student – 47 years old still saddled with a $67,000.00 college debt. Something needs to change!
4As a high school teacher I see this every day. Our counseling department does the best they can. They hold multiple parent nights to help parent fill out the FAFSA form. They have a dedicated counselor, secretary, and our local community college sends out someone a couple of days a week. This year, they are dedicating class time for seniors to work on these things. The problem is if you have no idea about any of this then you really will struggle even to get the urge to ask.
Beyond, the financial security that college used to bring is also the experience it brings. My parents went to college. So, my sister and I weren’t flying blind. It helped that they were teachers, so when we became teachers we benefitted from that experience. We tell kids about scholarships, grants, and financial aid, but it’s overwhelming for some of them. When mom or dad don’t know they need a ton of guidance. Some schools are better than others about offering it.
51. The country needs a college-educated proletariat. When a Nixon advisor pointed out to him this was what free college education was doing, Nixon started the GOP on the destruction of the affordable college programs.
62. Let the Christians among us not forget the parable of the workers in the vineyard, where those who worked all day complained at not getting paid more than those who were called in to avert a crisis at the end of the day. WWJD?
3. The ones getting the break are the students who can LEAST afford a college education! This is an absolutely noble act by the President.
My son is still faced with a debt in the multiple tens of thousands, but neither he nor I begrudge the lucky ones.
Nick … thanks for the on-going explanation of your interaction on student loan forgiveness.
Biggest questions I have:
* the way the legislation is written, is it a slam dunk that the President has the power to forgive the loans? Is there a precedent court case from the earlier forgiveness to those who had fraudulent information from proprietary schools or other similar actions? If it has not been litigated, will the current make-up of the judiciary allow the program to proceed?
* if the program proceeds, how difficult will it be to apply and have the program work? Since the average college grad leaves a public college or university with over $30,000 in loans, how will the program determine WHICH portion of loans gets forgiven and which continue?
* will the current debtors and future student debtors consider this a once-in-a-lifetime effort, or will everyone believe it will become a recurring event to have some debt written down?
7Free public education would solve many problems.
8Once again I’m gonna show my ignorance, but I’ve got a question based on assumptions I’ve made through the years.
9As I understand it the financial institutions doing most of the student loan lending are virtually guaranteed to be repaid. If not by the borrowers, then by us, the taxpayers. If that’s true, the only risk they take is how much profit they make. Effectively no risk of significant loss.
As I also understand it, the system is set up in such a predatory manner that borrowers can easily get caught up in an endless cycle of late fees and other penalties, adding more to the debt they owe, which increases the amount that WE’RE on the hook for when folks are forced to default on their loans.
Which if my uneducated assumptions are even close to being realistic, would be not too uncommon.
So here’s my question.
How the hell’s every dollar of debt forgiveness not, in fact, probably saving US money not being paid to corporate loan sharks?
Am I completely full of crap?
Poor choice of words.
Maybe I just haven’t seen anybody else bring it up.
Or not paying close enough attention.
Because lots of folks smarter than me would be talking about it.
I think this is where we have a separation from our brothers and sisters on the right. The common refrain I have heard from them (mostly on social media) is that these programs that helped us get through college relatively unscathed (scholarships, grants, GI Bill) are the same ones that have driven up the tuition costs over the past 20 years.
I can only speak for Texas as I haven’t really followed these trends nationwide, but it was the Texas Legislature and Rick Perry that decided to lift the cap on tuition in 2003 to help the colleges compete. It doesn’t take a mathematical genius to see what has happened to tuition costs since then.
The battle comes when we try to explain basic math and logic. I think the assumption is that these costs go up as a direct result of something else. They only respond to the market. It is similar to the gas prices as they cannot bring themselves to believe that Brandon does not control gas prices and that these oil companies are not gauging us unnecessarily. They would never do that. Big business good. Government bad.
10Nick @10 …
it isn’t even that state legislatures lifted a limit on tuition — in nearly all states, the extent of state funding for college education has dramatically decreased.
Colorado is among the leaders in the movement. In 2000, the state paid about 2/3rds the cost of an education at a public university. In 2018, they paid about 1/3rd.
According to National Science Board. “State Support for Higher Education per Full-Time Equivalent Student,” https://ncses.nsf.gov/indicators/states/indicator/state-support-for-higher-education-per-fte-student. Accessed on August 30, 2022.
11Colorado support (adjusted for inflation) went from $5,230 in 2000 to $4,468 in 2020.
Texas support (adjusted for inflation) from $6,186 in 2000 to $4,913 in 2020.
United States average of states & territories went from $7,364 in 2000 to $6,657 in 2020.