Let’s give this a try
Nuance has become one of the four letter words. We might as well skip it and move on with the rest of our lives. However, I’m a wild and crazy guy, so let’s give this a try. We have been told that if we mention anything somewhat bad about Israel that we are anti-Semitic and horrible horrible people. I know this is a risk, but I thought it was well worth the effort. Let’s start with a notion. Hamas is a terrorist organization. Hopefully we can all agree on that. While Hamas is made up of Palestinians and primarily Palestinians, it does not mean that all or even most Palestinians are a part of Hamas or even supportive of their efforts.
The Proud Boys and Klu Klux Klan are American groups, They are made up exclusively of Americans. However, no one in their right mind would argue that all or even most Americans are members or endorse their activities. I know this seems basic, but it should inform our thinking moving forward when dealing with groups like Hamas. So, when I tell you that nearly 6500 Palestinians have died in this conflict, our reaction should not be “well, those sorry bastards had it coming.” That kind of talk is grotesque and serves to exacerbate the problem. The ratio of Palestinians killed to Israelis killed is more than 20 to 1. This is fairly normal historically. Logic would clearly dictate that we should all find that to be somewhat troubling.
Governments have the right to respond disproportiately to threats, but those rights come with responsibilities and consequences. If your response is not proportional you might have some blowback around the globe when other rational actors consider your behavior. We have seen this in Europe as it pertains to Israel. Their opinions of Israel seem to differ from ours. We have long had a blind spot as far as Israel is concerned. They can do no wrong and have an absolute right to “defend themselves” even if that defense goes well beyond the normal bounds of self-defense.
We can say that we understand someone’s actions without approving of them. This is where many of our friends are in the case of Israel. We understand what the Palestinians are thinking and feeling. We understand what the Israelis are thinking and feeling. We understand their actions from a clinical perspective. When people feel threatened they act. Sometimes they act badly.
We can look at what Israeli leadership is doing and keep that separate from what the people are going through. No civilian should ever live in fear. This is a basic human right. We can assert this human right to all places around the world. We may hate the Russians, Chinese, Iranians, and anyone else. Their people deserve basic human rights. Hell, most of the time our hatred for those governments stems from the fact that their people are not afforded those basic rights.
I can feel an affinity to the Israeli people. I can feel that same affinity for the Palestinians as well. No one deserves this. To bomb neighborhoods because someone in Hamas might live there is grotesque and horrific. Killing and threatening civilians is never okay. We absolutely have to say that without equivocation. Some Palestinians have done some very bad things. They should be punished as any other aggressor should. Some are minding their own business and trying to live their lives peaceably. If we are going to say they all deserve it because a few of them killed Israelis then that is the bigotry. If we don’t question Israel and their constant need to meter out extreme justice then we are guilty of the same bigotry that the pro-Israel crowd is accusing rational and sane people of containing.
Even simpler: nobody has the right to kill civilians, particularly children, to accomplish their political goals. Every such death is both a crime and a sin.
1The horrible old man who founded Hamas, and was assassinated by the Israelis without arrest or trial, said one thing I agree with: that everyone’s blood is real (and thus that everyone’s suffering is real). He meant it as a threat, I imagine; I take it as a simple truth.
I was happy to see that two major newspapers in Israel have ripped Bibi a new one. Clearly and concisely, they have laid this mess right at his feet.
I very much hope that this is a case of FAFO and Bibi is finding out. At least there is now a coalition government formed in Israel and that ghastly judicial “reform” that Bibi was pushing to give himself dictatorial powers (and sent millions into the streets to protest) is now “on hold.” Unfortunately, this is coming at a terrible price.
2Thank you for your post. I wish people would learn the nuances of international relations rather than jumping in with both feet stomping, arms swinging, and brains on pause.
3In 1983, Israeli forces stood by as Christian militias in Lebanon massacre 3000 Palestinian men women and children. While the Israeli forces did not directly participate in the massacre, they stood by as the militias slaughtered Palestinians and prevented Palestinians from fleeing this hellish 3 days of murder.
It’s not all one-sided.
4Thank you; I believe you’re spot on.
5Nuance – when the devil is not in the details
6I’ve held a different view, for decades, of what the rational solution to the eternal Middle East problems centered on the so-called ‘Holy Land’ should be [a misnomer if there ever was one].
Given that both of the primary sides in this perpetual conflict act in similar horrendous fashion, and impose it on the rest of the world to one degree or another, certain requisite steps should be taken by some or all of the world’s major powers.
These powers, for the sake of the rest of humanity, need to reach an agreement. Both to prevent the never ending infection from spreading, and eradicate it forever.
That agreement would be to annihilate the entire so-called ‘Holy Land’ area in a nuclear action that would leave the entire region a hot glassed-over pit.
A sacrifice of many, for the much greater good of billions around the world.
The steps to be followed after reaching the agreement of major powers would be to arrange for the evacuation of all willing foreign nationals within a week. This would not include dual nationals of either target parties, presumed to be tainted by the conflict ideology.
After the foreigners are safely away, let the missiles and bombers fly…
This truly is the only viable solution to an intractable, everlasting, extremely serious problem that has existed not just decades, but centuries.
.
7And we’ll save a lot of money too, US taxpayers give annually Billions of dollars directly to the I/P parties [primarily Israel], and further Billions in weapons systems and all the overhead that entails. I’ve seen references to ~$3-4 Billion per year in subsidies to Israel, plus the weaponry, and a figure of $153 Billion total to 3/23, although the starting point wasn’t given.
Past time to end this enormous waste of our tax money.
I tried to sit on my hands and not comment. I really tried. Honest to God. But Richard JB@3 set me off with the “nuances of international relations”.
8Anyone heard of Hiroshima for instance? Where were those “nuances” back then? Pardon my French, but IMO we Americans are not eligible to talk about nuances, not having had an active battle on our home turf for God knows how many years (save 9/11 of course). Tell about those “nuances” to the Israel people whose babies were killed, women were taken, villages were burned. When it happens on YOUR home turf, it’s PERSONAL, you do not give a rat’s ass about “international relations”.
Remember Trump’s “there are bad people on both sides”? Well here we go…
p.s. That said, I stand with Sandridge@7.
Since 1970, Israel has established 300 “settlements” in Palestinian territory, creating refugees. The fifty-year-long process has been a slow-burn equivalent of what Hamas did in a weekend. It’s hard not to think of the Hamas invasion as partly a payback for creating a problem that the UN Works and Relief Association now says it needs $1.6 billion to address– the needs of Palestinian refugees.
9p.s. Sandridge@7 solution has only one flaw: it does not make the arms industry happy, including the U.S. arms industry. Eliminating the problem for good means loss of yearly income.
10Perhaps nuance is not the exact term. My frustration is not with people upset on an emotional level. While I’ve never experienced it, I can at least sympathize. My is that we have to be able to criticize all actors on the stage. Obviously those criticisms can be agreed upon or not, but if we are going to be called a racist, bigot, or dare say a Nazi for leveling those criticisms then we cannot have rational debate. I mentioned Europe and they are closer to the situation geographically and many of them have gone through more of these types of events than we have. Notice how they pull fewer punches.
11FrauFree @8&10, Holy Carp! I expected to get excoriated, ripped and shredded, and you’re agreeing with me…
It’s a radical, inhumane solution. But the problems are so dangerous, and perennial, that if enough people start discussing it, the two parties involved just might get scared shitless and solve it themselves..
12FrauFree @10, Good point. But I’m sure that the MICs of various nations* will find some other profitable places to gin up replacement business.
* The US is just one major weapons dealer among many, various Euros are quite big in the biz, plus the BRICS, etc., even Canada has some specialty items.
13It seems to me that every country that massacred Jews and forced them out and all the anti-Semitic hatred and persecution for centuries, leading them to settle in the Middle East, pushing aside the people who had lived there for centuries, bear some responsibility. I do think Israel has often been heavy-handed and brutal toward the Palestinians. Seems like people who have been brutalized then turn that against “the other,” both Israelis and Palestinians. It’s a sad, sad world and humans are a deeply flawed species.
14Nick@11 – I do not want to be disrespectful or even antagonistic – but what is a “rational debate” for us, is a matter of life or death for people back there.
Also: I’m probably too “tied” to my gender in this discussion. Israelis versus radical Islamists – we all know where the woman’s place is on one or another side.
Europe – yes. They know about battles there, too well. And they also know that sometimes it’s inevitable to pick sides.
Sandridge@12 – well, obviously I wasn’t 100% serious =) But sometimes, just sometimes the horrible ending might be better than endless horribility…
15No, you’re good. I have no beef with that perspective. There are those that try to carry water for Israel by using the threat of labeling to shut down debate. You aren’t doing that. You are adding context. I find it rich for those shutting down debate that are often the ones that complain about “cancel culture.” Talk about cancelling.
16treehugger: Yes.
The rest of the comments, including Nick’s post, are mostly history-free.
The Arabs — who were at the time the colonial victims of the Turks — attacked the first poor Zionists who landed in what was then a wilderness. Competition for an ancient homeland did not enter the picture.
In 1943, the Arabs signed on to the Final Solution, and the best way to consider the 4 major attacks on Israel (1948, 1967, 1973, 2023) are as campaigns 2, 3, 4 and 5 of the War to Exterminate the Jews project launched by Hitler in 1938.
I do not find any nuance in Kill All the Jews.
As for international law, that’s a one-way membrane that protects the murderers of Jews but not Jews.
17Some think Israel actions excessive??? Really?!?!?! have you not read their old book of BS fairy tales and lies!!! Genocide is the normal!
18How far back do you want to go Harry? Obviously, we can cherrypick any date in time and place blame on one party or another. Civilians don’t deserve this. Period. The family that is just getting by and trying to live in peace doesn’t deserve this whether they be Palestinian or Israeli. It doesn’t matter what year or epoch we may quote. The point remains the same.
19Don’t forget that many of the Palestinians are actually Christians. Check out the writings of Rev. Dr. Mitri Raheb, Lutheran pastor and President of Dar al-Kalima University in Bethlehem
20Likely (another) unpopular opinion of mine: Throughout history, there is as much blood on Christian hands than on Muslim hands – maybe even more. Being a Christian does not make one automatically a saint. Being a Muslim does not make one automatically evil.
21I go back as far as I said in my post: the arrival of the Zionist settlers.
Are you sure the Gazans do not share the aims and motives of the Hamas fighters? They do, after all, teach their children in schools that it is good to kill Jews.
Besides, if they objected to what is happening now, there is an easy way they could have forestalled it: They could have tipped the IDF.
Or, if they really are distinguishable from Hamas, they could welcome the IDF as their liberators, make common cause with them.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the so-called civilians are working covertly to throw off their Hamas oppressors. I am willing to bet I am not wrong. You name the amount. I will cover any wager.
22Not unpopular here FrauFree, In fact, that is kind of the point.
Let’s do a thought experiment Harry. Here in the United States we have organizations that might be considered terrorist groups like the Ku Klux Klan and the Proud Boys. Imagine if we draw a series of concentric circles. The inner circle would be those that are actual members of the organization and participate in such illegal activities. I think we can all agree they are culpable.
You have others that might be members technically but have never actually participated in illegal activities. The third group are non-members that might secretly (or not so secretly) are generally supportive of their aims. Obviously, the last one are for a majority who are not members and do not support their aims.
I think everyone agrees that the first group should be targeted or punished in some way. We can all agree that the last group should not be targeted. The big question are for those that might be generally supportive but have never joined in any of the activities. Do they deserve this? I guess one could make a claim for that, but I’m just not seeing it. Maybe I’m wrong. When it comes to violent retribution
23Jews were in the geographic community as the ‘original’ settlers.
24Islam did not exist until a renegade x-tian preacher began to teach hatred of Jews.
I don’t recognize any comments here (except this one) as coming from a Jew.
Jews have been driven from this land so many times we have beaten paths into the deserts.
There is no anthropological evidence, to my under educated self, of non-Jewish culture in the area that is supreme to Judaism.
I remain a proud Jew victim of diaspora, uneducated in your x-tian ways and proud of my secular education in the US.
First of all, where is your evidence that anyone in Gaza does not support Hamas?
Second, in the past, the actual effect of ‘protecting the innocent’ has been protecting the guilty.
Third, you do not have a choice that children not be killed. If you cared about that in Palestine, you were obliged to act before Oct. 7.
The Gaza example isn’t even the worst atrocity — in terms of headcount — this past month. That would have been either Darfur, Eritrea or Nagorno-Karabakh, or possibly Somalia. I note you did not get all moral about any of those. It looks very much as if what sets you off is not the murder of children but the prospect of retribution against people who kill Jews.
You say we can all agree that the first group should be targeted in some way. Not all of us agree that. My FB feed is loaded with demands for ‘peace’ — that is, no consequences.
But knock yourself out, tell us what way you propose.
25Heidi @ 20 There aren’t any Christians, aside from outside aid workers, in Gaza. It’s all Muslim.
It’s true there are Arab Christians. (My religion teacher was a Maronite Catholic from Lebanon.) And some Palestinian ones. But not in Gaza.
26Harry Eagar@22: I’m taking a risk to sound patronizing (matronizing, actually) – but. I lived the first 29 years of my life under the suppressing regime (USSR). Resistance is not as simple in practice as it is in theory (tipping the IDF, welcoming them as liberators etc).
We were talking about NUANCES before. THIS is where the nuances come to play. Yes, a person might (want to) be a hero, but there are also his/hers friends and relatives lives at play.
It is just my opinion, but I think for us, modern Americans it is nearly impossible to put ourselves into Palestinians (or Israelis) shoes. Because WE have been lucky enough not to be forced to make this kind of horrible choices THEY currently have to make.
27Sure. I can agree with all that. Here’s the nuanced part: There are 2,000,000 people in Gaza. Not one — so far as evidence shows — not one tipped anyone in Israel.
We know they knew, because someone tipped the Egyptians.
Every day, Palestinian traders exchanged produce at the northern border. Nothing too dangerous about leaving a written note under the vegetables.
I am opposed in principle to atrocity-mongering. But there are rules moralizers should adhere to:
1. If your advice means the murders get off, keep it to yourself.
2. In the special case of Jews, makes sure your advice is applied equally to the Jews and their opponents.
28Harry,
Okay, let me take those one by one.
1) Where is my evidence that not everyone supports Hamas?
Seems to me that my point was that not everyone deserves to die whether they support the aims or not. However, it seems fantastical to say that EVERYONE supports Hamas. So, I would say the burden of proof is not mine. Now, you can certainly argue that they all deserve to perish and we will take that assertion at face value. We will just say that we can agree to disagree on that.
2) Protecting the Innocent means protecting the guilty
You asked for my solutions and I never offered any. I’m not suggesting that I have any and my original post never made such a promise. I simply suggested the problem is more complex than it is made out to be and this is just one of those elements.
3) Why did I not get moral about those other situations?
Well, this is two-fold. As far as I know, no Americans died in those situations where the death toll here is fairly significant even on our side. However, I think you purposefully misunderstood the point of the post. There has been a long standing tradition of calling anyone that questions the Israeli government as anti-Semitic which you get very close to doing in your last reply. Interesting how that works.
I would simply point out something which is not universally accepted for whatever reason. If kids are brought up to hate Israel and the West we have to ask ourselves why. Some people will say they hate freedom or our culture and I’m sure there is some truth to that. I’m sure they may hate Jews and Christians, but I think that’s largely a red herring. Part of this is about what we and Israel have done.
If Israel is successful in eliminating Hamas they will also be successful in eliminating much of the Palestinian population. Where do they think Hamas came from? When you are barbaric you often invite that terrorism you seek to eliminate. Again, I’m not offering solutions because I simply don’t have any. I also recognize the desire to eliminate Hamas. We wanted to eliminate Al Queda. As we discovered, that is a lot easier said than done. It also means making choices that can make you more despised than when you began.
The original point of the post still stands. It is anything but simple or one-sided. Both sides have points of view that are legitimate depending on your perspective. I reserve the right to not be called an Anti-Semite because I choose to try to look at both points of view.
29Facts matter, and, though you may not think so, they exist. You suggest the hatred (if any) by Palestinians of Jews and Christians is a red herring, because of what ‘we and Israel have done.’
The Hamas charter includes (point 7) a hadith saying that even the rocks and trees will call out to the believers, here is a Jew, kill him.
The hadiths are believed to be the words of Muhammad, and while most of them are fake, and that one almost certainly is fake, it has guided Muslim attitudes for at least 1,200 years. Stop blaming the victims.
Furthermore, you are claiming that you have no solution to offer, but that is not true. The point of your post was that Israel must do nothing that endangers people you consider, with zero evidence, to be indifferent to or opposed to Hamas. That’s a solution.
1. That does not mean no one would be endangered but only that your preferred group would be be kept safe. You are not protecting children.
2. The most likely response, whether wise or not, of the Israelis to the attack was what it is shaping up to be. Yet the Gazans did nothing to forestall the attack, and they could have.
They had a choice. They were unanimous in the choice they made. I think it was foolish. In any case, I blame them for making it, and not the victims, who were, let us not forget, not Palestinians.
30Nick, if it is true that Gazans want to be rid of Hamas:
1. They are not willing to do it themselves.
2. The PLO will not help them,
3. Other Arabs will not help them.
4. The UN will not help them.
5. The Americans will not help them.
6. The Europeans will not help them.
7. Israel will help them.
I do not see any nuance there.
31Simply put, you are attaching motive to ordinary people. Could they act and keep this from happening. Yes. Absolutely they could. Yet, you are attributing motives for the simple fact of not acting. There are any number of reasons why people fail to act. Sometimes they are sinister and somethings they aren’t. Children are innocent victims too. Maybe you can blame their parents without acting but no one in their right mind would blame the child. More Palestinian children died than all of the Israeli and Americans combined in this conflict. They are innocent victims too. If you are refusing to acknowledge that there are innocent victims on both sides then we really have no more to discuss. Not everyone can be a bad actor. Some yes. Most maybe. All? Tht’s patently ridiculous.
32Sure the children are innocent. Even the oldest grown-up Gazans are today paying for the sins of their ancestors, as children do. They refuse to ally with the only force willing to throw off Hamas, instead demanding (with resounding reinforcement from those who ignore and minimize Jewish suffering) a second-best alternative: a ‘humanitarian corridor’ so they can continue to ignore the Jew-killers in their own neighborhood.
They can implore all they want, and call down the codices of international law, but they will never get it. The Arab governments hate and fear the Palestinians, and with excellent reasons. Nobody can stand the Palestinians.
The Arabs know what the Palestinians did when they were invited into Jordan, Lebanon, Tunisia, Egypt and Iraq, even if Americans don’t.
Today, the Gazans need friends. But their grandparents stabbed in the back the people who tried to help them.
So the alternatives are, either the Jew-murderers get away with it and more children die, or the Jew-murderers do not get way with it and more children die.
They are not any other possible outcomes.
33On that much we can agree. There are no good solutions. There are just solutions less bad than the others.
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