And Yet Another Facebook Conversation Down the Drain
Apparently, the impeachment proceedings are flushing all the Trump nuts out into the light, especially on social media. I had another one of THOSE FB conversations last night, this time with a Trumpist friend of my Never Trumper friend who described himself as a moderate. When an obvious Trumpist describes themself as a moderate, you know the conversation is going to go bad. This one did, and it didn’t take long for him to retreat into the normal Trumpist tropes. He characterized himself as a moderate who supports Trump (while never actually saying that); when I talked about Trump’s many well documented felonies, he said it was inappropriate for me to say he was a criminal without him being convicted of said crimes. He said that I should always use the word “alleged” before every act that Trump has committed. So, to play the game, I described Trump’s “alleged” 12,000 lies documented by the Washington Post and his ten “alleged” acts of felony obstruction of justice documented in the 480 pages of the Mueller Report, as well as his “alleged” attempts to get help from the Russians in 2016 which are also well documented. I then pointed out that Trump didn’t use “alleged” when he lied thousands of times over 6 years that Obama was not an American. Or that no one used the word “alleged” when conspiracy nuts lied thousands of times over 10 years that Michelle Obama was actually a cross dressing gay man and their daughters were actually born in Africa (Yes, that happened; look it up). The irony of that was lost on said Trumpist, so he told me that my “extreme fear” of Trumpists was hurting my ability to communicate with them. I pointed out to him that it wasn’t “extreme fear” of Trumpists but complete disdain for them. After he criticized my “reading skills” the conversation ended just as you can imagine.
I’ve never had a conversation with a Trumpist that has gone well. It normally devolves as above. My observation is that Trump supporters are either willfully ignorant, radically partisan, selfish, or just plain stupid. The first two of these traits are normally linked since a radical partisan will over look all weakness of the side they support. Now that we’re in impeachment territory, I’m giving no ground to them.
This phenomenon is hard to understand, but engraved in stone real. AND, it’s not fun.
Don’t even bother talking to them. Not only are they stupid, ignorant and bigoted, they are the most dishonest people I’ve ever run into. Instead of talking to Trumptards, I engage in more fruitful conversation, explaining T.S. Eliot to my dog. I’m more likely to get through to her than a Trumptard.
1Willful ignorance at this point.
Covering your ears and going LALALALAA I CAN’T HEAR YOU LALALALA combined with “my mind is made up, don’t confuse me with the facts”.
You cannot win trying to argue with people who don’t want to hear.
But remember: when he goes down in disgrace, and he will, none of these people will have voted for him or believed in him. None. Nobody.
And if, years from now, you show them their own words, they will deny those and accuse you of making stuff up to slander them.
Save yourself the stress — stay off FB and go play with the dog.
2Chin up, EJ. Things might get better pretty soon. It looks as if FOX might toss Trump under the bus and, if they do, his base should trickle away fairly quickly. After all, it’s FOX that tells these people what to think.
3https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/09/madness-at-fox-news-as-trump-faces-impeachment-lachlan-murdoch
It’s instructive to look at some of the “Flat Earth” true believers, and how they react when facts show the Earth isn’t flat. Here’s a link to a video: When Skeptics Meet Deniers – CFI Investigations Group tests Flat Earth claims
Notice how even when shown proof that the Earth’s surface curves, their leaders spout word salads, which their followers accept as gospel.
Replace Flat Earther Mark Sargent with Fox’s Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlsen, and you’ll see the similarities.
4What’s so hard to understand about it?
These vermin…errrm…people are fanatical cultists. Their cranial cognitive processes have been permanently short-circuited, all logical thought utterly warped. They’ve been rendered immune to facts, truth, hypocrisy, irony, reality itself. They willingly and blindly followed their leaders and propagandists into this rationality oblivion.
If you must interact with them, do so knowing that your erudition, in the sense of your lifetime of learning, improving, acquiring knowledge, facts, logic, skills, means nothing to them.
You are simply, by your resistance to trumpism and republicanism, a wrong-thinking ‘other’; above all, an enemy.
You must learn to regard them in the same glaring light. I really hate to have to express this in such forceful terms [over and over on these pages] but there’s no other way.
We are now unequivocally ‘At War’.
We Democrats, liberals, progressives did not start it, the ultra-conservatives did, thoroughly imbuing the rest of the Rethugs with that mindset. They really have become the 21st century’s Nazis in many ways; and the remaining, more overt and bloody, ways are just down the road; if not stopped.
Most of us, Dems, are still oblivious to this condition of war. It’s past time to realize the reality of this deep conflict. Your lives depend upon this recognition, however belated.
Anybody rational who thinks that if RAT45 wins, and holds the Senate in 2020, and that we will continue on as a relatively free democracy is delusional.
Just look at how our nation has been warped into a corrupt partial autocracy in just three years of Republican dominance. Think of how much worse it would be without the partial repudiation of the 2018 mid-terms.
The future depends on, as El Jefe and many others have stated, a massive 2020 Dem voter turnout. It is ‘the last chance’. Whether the Trump impeachment proceedings succeed or not.
5Explanatory: Who lies and who buys.
Drinking freely from the fountain of fabrication.
Edit:
A new ad for President Donald Trump’s 2020 reelection campaign is being widely denounced for including a totally “fabricrated” lie about Democratic rival Joe Biden
Bullshit: Paid in full and upfront –
According to Tim Murtaugh, director of communications for Trump’s 2020 campaign, the video is part of a new $10 million ad buy, including $2 million kicked in by the Republican National Committee.
“The allegation in this ad is made up. Fabricated.”—Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.)
For Trump followers and Republican supporters, however, it very much appeared successful. Just a quick perusal of right-wing responses to the video included these reactions and countless more like them:
“The mainstream media establishment cannot be trusted to report the facts.”; “Do not EVER take down this pinned tweet please. God bless President Trump.”; and “Please retweet. Many Americans still don’t know how corrupt the democrats are.”
Meanwhile, those who understand the actual facts around the case, experienced the campaign ad in a wholly different way.
“Not positive,” tweeted journalist Judd Legum in response, “but I think this is the world’s first political ad that brags about committing an impeachable offense.”
Here’s a nice touch:
Donald J. Trump ✔
@realDonaldTrump
I AM DRAINING THE SWAMP!
“Not positive,” tweeted journalist Judd Legum in response, “but I think this is the world’s first political ad that brags about committing an impeachable offense.”
But the major issue with the ad? It’s entire premise is a big—and very easily discredited—lie. And while not surprising, the new ad, especially as it comes on the heals of House Democrats’ announcement of a formal impeachment inquiry into the president earlier this week, offers a glimpse of how Trump will run his 2020 campaign – whether its against Biden or any other candidate.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/09/28/i-approved-message-trump-releases-2020-campaign-ad-completely-fabricated-lie-about
6I lost a friend of nearly 50 years because they had drunk this particular Koolaid; I’ll never forgive those liars for what they’ve done to our country.
7El Jefe, your ‘conversation’ was on facebook. Ergo, it could have been a bot, or certainly a troll. My conversation with the st00pid was in real time, face to face. Thus, the actual count of Trump supporters remains at one. Those polling agencies really need to tighten up their algorithms because it’s unlikely IQ4.5 isn’t in the backwash of impending impeachment. Seriously, his poll numbers are inflated. Also, on a positive note, Amercia isn’t as st00pid as his numbers would indicate. Close. But that st00pid? Nah. We reached the pinnacle with Dubya.
8As someone explained to me, arguing with a trumper is like playing chess with a pigeon – it knocks over all the pieces, craps all over the board, and then struts around like it won.
9Trumpists are seemingly unable to compartmentalize. I could be friends with some of them so long as we don’t talk about him. But nooo.. every conversation eventually gets to that sickening point where they will say..’So what do you think about Trump now?’ Then tempers flare and we don’t talk again for months.
I am currently going through this idiotic dance with a guy I’ve known over fifty years; we have had lots of shared experiences and mutual friends we could be gossiping about but all he wants to do is argue. We were each other’s Best Man at our wedding and now I have him blocked from calling. It’s tragic, this thing with Trump is personal to me.
I’ve tried to explain why they just can’t leave it be; my friend is an Evangelical and I think that feeds this sort of thing. He’s trying to save my soul.
10My “outreach” is to utilize civility, staying on point, and editing for clarity and brevity. If I’m being insulted/belittled, I ignore it to protect my argument. I try to remove my whiny sidetracks that give places for trolls to attack. And if there’s an edit function I go back to correct autospell substitutions and to rework the grammar, again to take away the kind of flaws trolls love to exploit. And when my facts are wrong I correct them (show a good example?).
Essentially, it’s nice to polish my rusty writing skills and get my point across with a minimum of troll bogeys sticking to me…
11@Jane & PKM: #8
12Oh yeah, if you spot similar grammatical constructs under different users, it’s probably bots. I point them out to other users to keep them from wasting time…
No one here should miss the link that twocrows posted above; it has an all time great quote from some Fox “News” drone:
“We need to represent our viewers,” the source said. “Fox is about defending our viewers from the people who hate them. That’s where our power comes from. It’s not about Trump.”
Nothing about, say, honestly reporting news – hell, nothing about reporting news at all. Just defending the little bubble the suckers who watch Fox live in. And retaining power for Fox.
13This morning I thought, with the impeachment inquiry in motion and Trump looking haggard and even more disoriented than usual, what’s he doing to take the bull by the horns?
Golfing with Lindsey Graham:
https://factba.se/topic/calendar
Trump fiddles on the golf course while his presidency burns. Unless anyone thinks Lindsey Graham is the go-to guy when a brilliant, time critical proposal is absolutely necessary?
14What the d’s need to do is have some form of truth commissions ala South Africa
15for all those thuglicans who, like the rats they are, are deserting.
Example
Rick wilson and Nicole wallace.
Wilson brought us sarah palin and nicol wallace worked for a criminal regime yet both sell the idea that they worked for “honorable” people and have no responsibility for where we are now.
Wallace has even talked about how sleazy cheney had never threatened national security while overlooking the entire iraq war and the outing of valerie Plume.
Before they are allowed to assume the title of a democrat or progressive or even decent human being they should have to make public any and all ( no exceptions for anything Legal liability is on them but no excuse for evading full release of aanything they can get their hands on) documents, letters, emails, notes any communication or document they have ever exchanged with or about thuglicans and their perversions.
Also in a just world they would return every penny they ever received from the government, since fraudelent service they never worked for the country only their party, plus anything they ever received from their thuglican paymasters,
I know will never happen because they are still veiwed as “power” players and we all know law, ethics principles and oaths do not apply to power players.
Say kids, what time is it? Its Chump and Rudy Time!
A Closer Look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV4GEbnC8_Y
16Just a reminder. We can go two ways. First, we must rid ourselves of the corrupt orange one or face the fate of total corruption regressing into dictatorship, (hint: we are very close to this now). The second option would be very, very horrible for millions – chose wisely and fight mightily for justice.
17Sandridge:
18Agreed. But I’d like to add something.
To them, we started the war.
It’s total bulls**t, but it’s what’s pounded into their brains constantly.
How?
By fighting for the rights of everyone. White, black, gay, straight, men, women, and everyone inbetween. Everyone equally. Threatening the supremacy of white males all over America.
And since I believe most folks tend to project their own values on to others, they believe we do this for our own personal gain. Making us the enemy trying to steal their hard-earned pay. (Please refer to Alan’s comment on the post before the toons.)
And justifying their hatred of us. And anybody who thinks that only they(right wingers) project their values on to others, ask yourself this. How many times have you been disappointed when someone doesn’t display the kind of common decency you feel would’ve been the bare minimum in a situation. Because it’s what you would’ve done in their shoes?
And to illustrate Lakoff’s point of framing the debate, everything I’ve talked about here recently has been about human rights for all.
19When in reality the real issue is the wealthiest, most powerful pitting us against our fellow citizens.
But that doesn’t sell advertising.
Or promote the goals of certain foreign powers.
20Sandridge @ 5 and P.P. @ 18,
I live in a retirement community just ouside of PHX. Most of people living here are Trumper GOPs. These folks also have guns. I make it point to fly well under the radar here. I never discuss or bring up politics. I never put bumper stickers on my car, or wear clothing with any political message/affiliation. These are ignorant, gullible and dangerous people who insist their way is the only way. They will only get more aggressive and angry as the impeachment progresses.
I, too, have had to distance my self from long-time friends who went to the Trump GOP dark side.
21Papa:
22Stay safe.
It didn’t take very many times for me to learn: the instant I produce a credible counterargument or referential link to some empirical data or fact, I’m called a libtard and they run away.
Every. Single. Time.
Digby noted just yesterday: “…Still, these are all adults with agency. They have access to vast amounts of information if they choose to see it. They don’t. Their temperaments and their tribal affiliations make them love the bubble in which they live and worship Trump as someone who speaks for them. That’s all on them…”
https://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2019/09/qotd-senior-republican-senate-staffer.html
It absolutely is, and I’ll never let them forget it, nor forgive – the damage they’ve done with their cultish fervor and bile is just too egregious. And THAT’S how my decades-long desire to never speak to my in-laws again came gloriously true. When the left says this is harmful and divisive, this is EXACTLY what we mean.
Usually don’t bother with Jefe’s posts, but welcome to my world, slick.
23I’m going to go out on a limb here and point out to the died in the wool Trumpists they are really not all that different from the folks who followed a mass killer to a jungle refuge where they ended up either forced to take their own lives or being killed outright. And the whistleblowers, including a U.S. Congressman, were murdered.
I simply don’t get into any sort of serious conversation with Trumpists. There are better things in life than to waste my energy.
24