Weekend Hive Mind Project
I have a weekend project for you guys. One of our long-time customers – who needs to remain anonymous and you’ll see why – has a situation.
She lives in another state – let’s say Nevada except it’s not Nevada. We’re gonna call her Mary. Mary’s elementary age daughter attends public school there. I’ll let her talk a minute …
The school district I’m in has a release time bible education program, which I know is constitutional (depending on implementation), but it goes well beyond what I think should be acceptable in terms of operation.
They don’t have classes on school grounds, but own buildings next to each elementary school. The school lets them have a table at the school orientation day (!), the employees of the bible school come in to the building to get students who come to their classes, the bible school gives candy rewards to students who recruit classmates to come, and in the past (although I don’t know if this is still happening), they’ve had access to complete class lists.
I don’t think that’s constitutional, but that’s not what is bothering Mary.
What is not okay to Mary is that “the district has a (what appears to be unwritten) policy that teachers can’t introduce new material while some of the students are away at bible.” About half the class goes to bible.
That sucks.
Mary is a very well educated and gifted musician. She volunteered to come in during that time and do something fun and educational with the kids who don’t go to bible so they aren’t just sitting there with a coloring book.
Mary again —-
Well, last week I was working with them on making soda straw horns, and one of the kids who went to Bible came back and saw that and was inconsolable. And this is somehow my freaking fault. (I wasn’t blamed for it, but a concern was raised about children feeling like they’re ‘missing out’ while they’re at Bible).
I feel like it can’t possibly be legal (which is probably why there’s no published policy), but I don’t know how best to express that.
And to be clear, I made a case for what *I’m* doing that the principal decided she could defend. Because my kiddo is in 3rd grade, I’m picking 1st and 2nd grade standards to hit with my projects. So if it’s not review, it really should be.
But I guess what I want to convey to the school district is that:
* my kid has a right to education during that time, and I shouldn’t have to come in and do it
* it shouldn’t just be in her class. The district needs to educate all the kids that don’t go.
Mary needs arguments to take to the principal – who appears to be on Mary’s side – and Mary thinks we know some good ideas to help her and then the principal can use them, too.
Jump in with anything you got.
Bible classes take place during school hours? And teachers are not supposed to teach or do anything while Bible class is going on? I don’t think this can possibly be legal.
My husband keeps a better track of this sort of thing because it doesn’t make him scream and spike his blood pressure. I’ll ask him which are the best groups to advise Mary about this.
1Random thoughts….
— Every school district (re: state) has attendance standards: so many days/year, so many hours/day. Altering what should be teaching time to “busy” time to accomodate the Bible students seems to water down that standard for the non-Bible students.
— Your school district is trying to pull a fast one. Religious insruction cannot occur in public school (re: separation clause, US Constitution) so they get a place nearby off school grounds. Several states have read this as providing religious instruction during the school day because the school is sanctioning this action. Plus, the liability of students leaving school grounds during school hours without being accompanied by parent(s) is problematic. Even if parents give permission.
— Search around. These cases exist in other areas. This is not new. Good luck.
2I have lots of ideas and I think release Bible time is okay, but somehow there needs to be an equalizer. Art and music and theater are always easy to integrate into Bible studies. The thing about making Bible study part of a study of different cultures takes away the punishment aspect. People need to learn about different Bibles. I never went to release time–our family discussed it around the dinner table– but my husband did. He saId the worst part of it was, the preacher was the Bible teacher and didn’t know how and it was a waste of time.
3The whole thing is a moot point because probably lots of people aren’t negotiable on any of the issues. But the Bible DOES have wonderful stories.
If the combination of the state constitution and state laws mandate a certain amount of instructional time, and kids are not getting it because Bible study is offered during school hours for the kids skipping class (what it amounts to, dontcha think?), this is illegal.
Bible study AFTER school, fine – and those kids can miss out on basketball and football practice and track – but not during school hours. Kids with special needs have pull-out time from class for individual tutoring, etc., and stuff is taught THEN, why are the kids who are skipping school given special privileges?
4I’m pretty sure I lived in your state although my kids were grown when we lived there. I was told many years before we moved there that the federal government had put a stop to what you describe, but apparently it has crept back in. Since we left, I know that class size to teacher ratio has grown significantly. Also children who did not go to the religious classes were social pariahs. If at all possible get your child enrolled in an Episcopal or Catholic school or home school.
5I meant learn about different religions/holy books. These folks likely don’t want anyone telling their children about the Koran or those furrin books. Just remember, Jesus was part of an Eastern religion.
6I believe Mary needs to have a chat with the Freedom From Religion Foundation.
7Puzzle time: I betcha it’s Wyoming.
8My suggestion is see if you can get the Southern Poverty Law Center interested. They take names and kick….sorry Mama.
9Release time programs (permitting public school students to attend religious classes during the school day) have been held constitutional since 1952 with the U.S. Supreme Court decision of Zorach v. Clauson, as long as the instruction doesn’t happen on campus and no public funds are used to support it. The important question is how entangled is the district in supporting and recruiting students. The more involved the district is, the more likely the program is unconstitutional. As for the kids who don’t participate, the school has an obligation to have constructive activities for those students. The kids who do participate should not suffer significant academic disadvantage, which means you shouldn’t introduce new material, but you can do things like special projects, individual tutoring, study hall, etc.
10All together: I’d worry more about the Bible class wandering the campus than I would what they do or don’t learn. Things have changed. I want to hear how this all turns out.
11I think the district is in violation of FERPA:
http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html
12The Texas Association of School Boards (TASB) has a legal dept. that can tell you about this real quickly or at least they could back in the 1980’s when I was a trustee in a small East Texas Bible Belt town.
13I’m betting Idaho!
I’m also going to stick with the existing law – most states have them – as to how many instructional hours per day are required in each class so the children can actually be promoted at the end of the school year. This bible class right next door is not a compromise. Its a distraction to the learning process and a disadvantage to the kids all the way around. I once taught catechism in private homes. Our parish had a religious education program largely aimed at the kids who were not in catholic school. This took place after school hours. Parents who wanted their kids in the program either took them to wherever the lessons were that year or volunteered their homes as an instructional site. There was no flat out or third cousin almost removed constitutional issues. I know that once the school system is shaken up and shapes up and no longer allows this “dissonance”, the bible people will go totally ape and make a big thing out of something they shouldn’t have been doing in the first place. And no, there will be no peace with them at all ever. Good luck to your friend!
14Released time instruction is legal, but it’s the kids who go who are “released,” not from learning stuff required by the school district (or now, the states), but from having to attend another non-required class.
I’m not sure the scheme of taking kids out of class is legal.
But I’m checking. Pretty sure it’s been litigated before (Zorach as someone mentioned? Let me check.)
15I hope Mary will report this situation to Americans United for the Separation of Church and State at http://www.au.org/
They pursue this kind of case first with advice, then with communicating with the scofflaws, and with legal action if necessary.
16Hi Mark in Austin,
I think here’s where we come the issue: “The kids who do participate should not suffer significant academic disadvantage, which means you shouldn’t introduce new material,”
Two questions here:
1. for a third grader, what really constitutes ‘significant academic disadvantage’? In this district, introduction of ‘new material’ is being used so broadly that the teachers feel they can’t teach *anything*. Does it mean material the students *need* to know or will be assessed on? Or does it mean anything students might not already know (which is how it’s being interpreted). I guess I’m kind of baffled as to why one set of parents’ exercise of their religious rights is able to interfere with the educational rights of the students who don’t choose to participate.
2. In terms of constructive activities, how is something like a study hall meaningful for kids in this age group? Are there really people making an argument that it is?
Would appreciate thoughts on this.
17What does Bubba say?
18See Smith v. Smith and Doe v. Shenandoah.
Can’t penalize non-released time students, say, by making them do nothing to learn while their comrades are away.
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/released-time
Instead of suing right away, it would aid the parents’ cases to meet with the teachers and school administrators to be sure kids are not treading education water during the released time periods.
In my high school in Utah, LDS seminary (in a building on a small plot next door to the high school) was scheduled in for everybody (two non-Mormons in my graduating class of 208). When I went to get my schedule changed for the French class I’d signed up for, the counselors were aghast. “Everybody takes seminary.” “I want French.” “We’ll tell your parents.” “Please do; they’ll ask you why you gave me a religious class I didn’t sign up for in a faith I don’t practice instead of the French that will help me get into college . . .”
You get the picture.
At lunch conversations, one of the non-Mormon kids was amazed I got out of the seminary classes. He was told he couldn’t (and took three years of it, as I recall).
We couldn’t get a 7th period to add calculus or Latin to the curriculum, but LDS seminary classes were run an hour before school started for LDS kids who wanted to get more math and science, or shop and ag, effectively a 7th period to accommodate religious instruction.
Not sure how legal that was. Not sure I’d sue now, either.
Precedents from school-prayer cases, and from other cases involving church-state relations, strongly suggest that schools should not rent their facilities to religious groups for indoctrination during the school day, and that schools probably cannot give academic credit for released-time programs.
Although in Lanner v. Wimmer the federal appeals court gave reasons why certain other types of credit may be constitutional, other courts might disagree, and Supreme Court precedents are ultimately controlling.
Several cases may apply. How many links may I put in a comment before the spam filters grab me?
19So it lengthens the school day so kids can be indoctrinated?
Can’t be legal, and with the continually increasing numbers of unaffiliated and atheist parents, it’s probably easier now to stop it.
A good way to think about it is that the kids who go will differentiate the kids who don’t as “pagans” or “devil worshippers.”
20Links to cases you may find useful:
1. 1925, Pierce v. Society of Sisters, http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=268&invol=510
2. 1948, McCollum v. Board of Education, http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=333&invol=203
3. 1952, Zorach v. Clauson, https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/343/306
4. 1962, Engel v. Vitale, http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=370&invol=421
21I’m pretty sure that the above mentioned organizations would be willing to sue on this.
(I did spend a year on the board of the ACLU chapter in King County Washington State. We had half the cases in front of the Supreme Court that year.)
“The Lemon test, the endorsement test, the coercion test, the Felton question about indoctrination, and the underlying idea of neutrality can all potentially apply when someone challenges a school as violating the Establishment Clause.”
from http://www.centerforpubliceducation.org/Main-Menu/Public-education/The-law-and-its-influence-on-public-school-districts-An-overview/Religion-and-Public-Schools.html
22More cases.
5. 1975, Smith v. Smith, http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/391/443/1494533/
Case involves elementary students, and it suggests that NOT offering instruction on “new” material is an illegal accommodation of religion. It’s 4th Circuit only, but assuming this case is in the 9th Circuit, I think they’d go along (is it 9th Circuit? 10th?).
6. 1990, Doe by Doe v Shenandoah, http://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/737/913/1446607/
This case suggests simply having a correct policy is not enough, but that school officials must enforce religious rights of those who do NOT participate in released-time instruction. Reach of the case is limited — it’s Western District of Virginia, not even appealed to 4th Circuit that I’ve found.
Issues to emphasize, assuming the state in question has state standards and some testing mechanism to assure students meet those standards, is that the school district is violating state rules on instruction in order to give a “recess” to accommodate religion, penalizing those students who do not take the released time classes. In Utah, attempts were made to qualify many LDS released-time programs for history or other social studies credit; if that’s not being done here, the objection is that the released-time program is simply not square with the state’s efforts to meet federal guidelines and the state’s own standards on student performance and advancement.
23Back in the 60’s the school district had a “released time” policy. It was mostly for the benefit of the Roman Catholics — of which there were a boatload what with all the children of Irish and Italian immigrants who had children in our schools. It was on Tuesday mornings and us pagans, heathens, Methodists, Epicalopeans, Jews, and a token 7th Day Adventist stayed behind and had a study hall.
24Can the non-participating students be taken outside for recess?
Maybe they could play some type of game which reinforces learning?
25Sorry, but Catholics have been providing religious instruction to those who attend public school in the evening CCD(religion) classes for decades. I had not heard of this “release time” from school for bible study. It does not sound fair to undermine the academic curriculum for the advantage of one religious group.
26Let them have those classes before or after school.
Kudos to the mother who provided engaging music instruction to her child’s class, but the school should have that responsibility, not the parent. As for the “bible” child who wanted his cake and to eat it too, a life lesson learned.
I’ve been here and done this. Here’s the problem and the rationale:
We are in a small school district where Jesus takes second place to football between August and November. Problem is, my son was small and comes from a family of late bloomers, and his fond mama was appalled at the idea of chronic back issues, destroyed knees and concussions, not necessarily in that order. If you didn’t play football, but had the nerve to play other sports, you sat on the track during your state mandated phys ed period. Because, you know, all the coaches were all busy with football. So you couldn’t have a ball to throw, or a game to play, or anything. During your PE time!!
The school principal sustained two visits from me, during which I pointed out that in all reality, my son had no choice in the matter. I made the decision, and my son followed my instructions. Therefore, it was unfair to punish my son for MY decision, as it was for all those other non-participa-ting boys too. And they could accommodate my son according to state law, or they could take the consequences!
If they allow the “release” students to have an activity, then EITHER the non participating students get an “unfettered” or “unstructured” release time (library, art, reading, sleep, recess, whatever) or they get anothercactivity to choose, too. If the Bible kids like the activity better they can change their minds, no penalties-at school! The parents are outside that deal! The school can’t legally promote religious (even the religion of football!) participation at the expense of non-parti-cipants. That is not a legal option, period. It is never a bad time to learn that sometimes choosing one thing precludes another-you can’t have your cake AND eat it; that’s life!
27Maryelle, your cake comment came in while I was typing mine. I learned to bake so I never run out of cake ;*
28Another good source of help is the Freedom From Religion Foundation (ffrf.org). They frequently deal with similar issues. If the school is in violation laws or the constitution, a letter from them often gets the schools to correct the situation without a lawsuit, as the schools usually lose in court.
29Wow, I’ve never heard of this before, but I live in one of the most un-churched states in the country. As a liberal Christian I’d still object – those “bible” classes should be taught before or after school.
My only remembrance of kids who left for a class that not all of us attended was in 4th grade when there was a flutophone class. For whatever reason (even though I was musically inclined) my mother didn’t sign me up. The ~25% of us who didn’t go to that class stayed behind in the classroom. IIRC the teacher had some sort of fun project for us to complete… though I was jealous of the kids who got to go do music. At least the following year my parents let me join band, starting on flute, which I still play, 50 years later in community groups.
30Compromise: teach science during the release time. No one loses.
31Also check http://faculty.smu.edu/mchancey/pdfs/Crockett_v_Sorenson.pdf
We were personally involved in this. The hubs was an expert witness (PhD Church History) for the plaintiffs. We were vilified by the local religious, lost secondary (and very needed) jobs as a result. We would do it again in half a heartbeat.
Oh, and the teachers lied through their teeth on the witness stand because they thought the ends justified the means. No, it just made them liars.
32teaching science is a good idea (see above comment) but teaching evolution and climate science, or maybe sex ed, in particular will assure they don’t complain….
33Compromise: teach science during the release time. No one loses
I like the way you think.
For maximum effect, the kids Left Behind could subversively study geology. My seventh-grade Earth Science textbook ruined me for creationism.
34May I suggest contacting the folks at Satanic Temple? I’ll bet they could put an end to this publicly sanctioned gawd bothering.
35Laughing. During the McCarthy era, we were forbidden to talk about May Day (the year before, we had a Maypole at school.) My teacher made us use blue grading pencils instead of red, because, you know. We also had PE with different segments. I was a pigheaded theologian who argued about it all the time with my Baptist friend. When we got to the dancing segment, I informed my teacher that I didn’t believe in dancing and wouldn’t be doing that. Huh. I was the only one in class sitting on the bench while everyone else danced. The teacher called Mother and we had to go see her and I had to (gag) apologize. Mother didn’t believe in dancing either but she believed mostly in teachers. I think all this discussion would be a fun novel.
36Just how much time per week is this co-opting from productive classroom time? Taking time out from a school day and requiring an adjustment in lesson plans is ludicrous.
As thinly stretched as most teachers and school budgets are, I think this is quite an imposition. I think the best use of time would be a sort of open forum for the remaining students, where any questions about already covered material can be explained again, or further explored. If the religion class students miss the review, I guess they should pray for divine inspiration at test time.
Alternatively, the class lessons should be kept on schedule, and the missing students’ parents can hire a tutor at their own expense, to take class notes and catch their kids up.
I grew up in a fairly conservative town, with classmates who mostly went to church, as far as I knew. When I was in grade school, some guys came through one year, and handed out free Gideon Bibles to every student who wanted one. A few years later, that was deemed unconstitutional, I believe. But I had catechism on Saturdays. Later on, in high school, the religious classes were Wednesday evenings, at the church hall.
Nobody EVER left a school class to go get religious instruction.
MADNESS!!
37Perhaps the answer might be to have the ‘left behind’ children make art projects and make enough of them as gifts for the holy children as well. Every day could be a gift presentation for the children who missed the art / community service instruction. Might tempt the religious instruction group to want to stay in class. Wouldn’t stop it, but it might slow it down to where everybody loses interest. I can see the headline in the Washington Times now – sock puppets conquer Iowa school!
38Why should the Bible children get gifts? They’re already being bribed -uh, rewarded – with candy.
39Correction:
40Candy and Eternal Salvation.