Where to start?
As you know, I’ve been wrestling with this election’s outcomes, and questioning how we got here, and how come it was such a big surprise. I’m less concerned with post mortems, however, unless they give us clues to how to move forward. The Republicans famously did a post mortem of their 2012 Presidential loss, then infamously ignored all of its findings. And then there’s Dat Guy, proving exactly what? I still don’t know, except that post mortems aren’t all they’re cracked up to be, I guess.
Nevertheless, we have to pick a way forward. We have to decide on an individual basis, on a community basis, on a state basis and on a national basis what we on the Left intend to do about all this, and how we can make it better.
But first, I think we need to ask some questions that are hard to answer. Clearly, there is an enormous divide in this country right now. Although I love me some Barack, and I agree that more unites us than divides us in the microcosm of our own communities, on a national level we are losing the argument as to the soul of our nation. The political divide is only widening.
Tribalism seems to be deeply rooted in our genetics. As a strategy of survival, the success of a herd/pack/pride/troop/etc of a species is well established. Genetically, the life of an individual is always subsumed to the life of the species. With our evolved sense of selves, however, belonging to a tribe raises conflicting impulses, while also giving comfort. Rather than being a unit of the herd, humans conceive the tribe to be an extension of themselves.
Competition for limited resources among tribes has evolved along with technology to the point where the resources themselves are no longer casus belli. Suspicion of and antipathy towards the Other is no longer a vestigial survival mechanism, but rather a satisfying defense of the superiority of my tribe, because I AM my tribe, and my tribe is ME.
Hence, our politics.
In order to find the way forward, we have to try to understand what all that means. What does it mean to be an American? What does it mean to be a Democrat? What does it mean to be a Liberal?
I’ve shared my “progressive manifesto” with you before. What do YOU all think our shared values on the left are? What do YOU think it means to be members of those tribes?
In other words, what do we stand for? Once we understand that, once we’ve defined what our shared vision is, then we can ask the next questions of how we go about bringing that message to the rest of the Tribe, and then the nation.
Please: share your thoughts.
Primo, way too cerebral for this simple guy. So, I’ll start with what it means to be an American of the 21st century. Yes, I’m one of those blasted dang millennials. It’s all about equality and staying centered/unified around the 14th Amendment. Forget the “identity” politics of either political party. To be a liberal or a Progressive Green? Accept the technology, accept the science and accept our current status on the planet. Fiddling with the clocks won’t change any of that despite what BLOTUS and the snacilbupeR may think. It ain’t 1950 and it won’t ever be 1950 again. Our “new tribe” needs to move forward with as many members as we can message, and yes, that includes those who vote snacilbupeR against their own interests. Never too late to respect Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. Fact is since Reagan we’ve lost ground to where the very base of Maslow’s pyramid is threatened – “1. Biological and Physiological needs – air, food, drink, shelter, warmth, sex, sleep, etc.”
Update “drink” to clean water and add education, and that is our starting point.
*** Mama please stop reading. Donnie, $Rmoney, Petraeus, and snacilbupeR start reading:
Words from Admiral William Fallon describing David Petraeus that could be equally applied to Donnie and Mitt (loosely paraphrased and moderately cleaned up): “an ass-kissing little chickenshit.” Enough already, boys. You managed to clean up and re-polish the turd known as Ollie North. Not this time. We the people are done. Quit wrapping yourselves in the flag while defecating on the US Constitution. George Dubya Bush wore out that fear siren you keep blowing.
1Quoting from the end of your “progressive manifesto”:
“Where we do NOT compromise is in the ultimate goals: that suffrage truly be universal; that respect for all lives and acceptance of all lifestyles truly be upheld; that stewardship of Earth is vital to all species, including us; that basic human needs are themselves rights; and that the Four Freedoms be truly practiced and protected: that religion be tolerated, but intolerance is not religious; that speech be protected, but money is not speech; that poverty is sinful, but the poor are not the sinners; that fearful is no way to live, and certainly no way to vote.
That respect for basic human dignity be freely given to all, demanded of all and defended by all.”
For me, it works to have respect and care, equality and justice for all and for the earth, where clean air, water and soil are rights. To hold that corporations are not people, but people are.
2If the Democratic Party starts espousing what Bernie Sanders has been saying, then people will be happy to vote Democratic. We must care for the ordinary people and divest from the 1%.
Random thoughts: The Republicans generally stand for “Freedom To” (do whatever you want), and Democrats generally stand for “Freedom From” (often freedom from being hurt by people doing whatever they want, such as polluting, paying inadequate wages, making dangerous products, and making you follow their religious principles). Dems are more open to new people, new experiences, and new ideas; GOPs seem to get nervous around people who don’t look/love/believe exactly as they do. Dems look at a roomful of politicians who are all white and nearly all male and say, “That’s messed up.” GOPs don’t see the problem. Both are vulnerable to fake news, but GOPs seem to latch onto it more often and to be suspicious of science and anyone who’s spent their life studying something; they’re more likely to think that “My opinion is as good as or better than your knowledge.” And they’re both likely to be surrounded by people who agree with them.
So how do we get our message out? Beats me. Increasingly we have two sides who aren’t talking to each other and often aren’t even encountering each other in person.
I’d say our basic message is that we’re all part of a whole and we need to think about and help each other for the good of us all. GOPs probably think that way too, but on a family and neighborhood basis, not national and certainly not international.
Maybe I’ll have better ideas later….
3I stand for honest dialog instead of lies, inclusion rather exclusion, freedom to decide your medical needs, and the ability to retire when you need to without being reduced to poverty.
I stand for listening to what scientists say about pollution, global warming, infectious deseases, and safe work practices. I do not stand for people who make 500 times what I do in a year paying less in taxes than me.
I stand for publicly owned and maintained roads, bridges, harbors, and airports. I stand for good K-12 public education, affordable, quality college and tech schools, and not-for profit hospitals.
I will support Medicare for all, and the taxes necessary to achieve that. I will support infrastructure to maintain good, productive, society. I will–and have–support a woman’s right to choose, and vehemently oppose any who try to take that away.
There’s more, but that’s a start.
4I’m not sure we have a shared vision, though Dems/liberals/progressive do have a lot of overlap. The problem is that the Dem tent is so big that large portions of it leak out and don’t vote Dem. Idealism is great for the soul, but not so good for elections.
Things are so bad now in the country that our primary shared vision would seem to be not-Repub and we failed at that. It would be nice if we could translate that vision into actually winning elections. The Repubs as a group seem to understand that that is the first rule of politics and they unite accordingly. Then, once they win, they get to make all the other rules. We’re seeing that in progress right now. It is extraordinarily ugly.
So my suggestion for a shared vision would be winning elections. Hillary Clinton may not have passed every Dem/liberal/progressive’s purity test, but it is a fact that she is not Donald Trump. I sure wish she had won.
5Stop giving the delusional any legitamacy or respect. It just encourages them and makes them appear to be sane to the low information voters.
6Start by ignoring any of the delusions based upon the fantasy ( born of fear, ignorance and hate) of some magic man in the sky.
Once this particularly violent strain of ignorance gets into people the rest of the domino’s fall ending up in social, environmental and physical destruction of the planet and humanity in the name of whatever flavor of delusion one subscribes to.
Drumpf spokesman says it will be okay to repeal the ACA because 20 million Americans still have emergency rooms. It is this kind of stoopidity that we are up against.
Obama created 15.5 million private sector jobs. The stock markets are at record highs. Gas prices are low, oil output is way up. The economy has been steady. Bin ladin is dead. 20 million more Americans have health insurance since Obama took office. Taxes are low. Obama has patched up relationships around the world destroyed by dumbass dubya. Dems have raised the minimum wage again and this has all been done without the help of the traitors in the wingnut party.
Tell me why wingnut voters are sure the economy is in the dumps? Because of lies. They get the same lies time after time and they believe it. There is no fighting this stoopidity. It can’t be done. Wingnuts will literally have to destroy the whole world before their voters start to think for themselves.
7Primo, I
8Agree with what you’re saying about tribalism. But I think as a rule, progressives consider all Americans as part of our tribe. Which is progress. Tribalism by race, religion, and close proximity are our history, making it easier to make bigotry nostalgic. The internet and fake news is just taking advantage of the benefits of the Long term investments that conservatives have made for decades. George Lakoff said it best in my opinion. I urge anyone who hasn’t read his book Don’t Think of an Elephant to do so.
I don’t know that I have any wise thoughts on tribalism and the other critical things spoken here, but I have one thought that keeps coming to me and has for years.
9I wish Democrats would stand up and explicitly say what needs to be said, call out the lies in strong terms, and in words at the 5th grade level. One commenter after the election said that he understood what Trump said but that Hillary never seemed to make sense. Forget whether what one says may not be close enough to the center or whatever, may hurt one’s chances of being elected. Being of the “lite” variety hasn’t been very successful!
I was not a particular Bernie supporter, but he seemed to be able to get his ideas/ideals across to a large number of people. If he could gather a large number of people while being what most consider a non-viable candidate, why can’t we as a whole accomplish that?
I wish I were better able to express my thoughts on this; I hope at least some of it came through.
http://crooksandliars.com/2016/12/kris-kobach-no-evidence-backs-trumps-claim
More stoopidity.
10@Primo
I too struggle with the outcome and second guess what I personally could have done differently. In Texas.
As “lefties”, as my idiot former best friend called me, I think we share a vision and values. But in a large not-homogeneous population such as the USofA, I suspect the Left can be sliced as well and there may be lefties that do not share my particular progressive democrat slice as well as that of others here in the salon. At the end of the day the slices of the left must work together regardless of the details of their shared values, or lack, to defeat the greater evil that is the Right. With the Right I opine there is no common ground and no value to share except atom level disagreement.
11The advent of the fake news and talk radio, where hate spewed lies are taken as fact has been the ruination of our democracy.
12Unless and until these outlets are compelled to substantiate every last fallacious word, the cause for progress is lost. The raging Trump voters fell for every lie, hook, line and stinker. Critical thinking is now looked upon as traitorous. The tea party
jihadists are now in control thanks to voting restrictions, gerrymandering and apathy. If we were able to abolish the Electoral College, we might have a chance next time, but that is doubtful and so is another Dem in the White House anytime soon.
Checklist:
1. Do you support the notion that every person should have cheap, clean water?
2. Do you support the notion that every person has the right to affordable healthcare?
3. Do you support free, fair, and cheap elections?
4. Do you support every person’s right to choose the gender partner of their choice?
5. Do you support controls on firearms?
6. Do you support diplomacy over war?
7. Do you support a woman’s right to chose?
8. Do you support publicly funded, maintained and staffed K-12?
9. Do you believe in “the commons” principal of publicly owned and maintained roads, bridges, harbors, airports, city and interurban transit, national parks, wildlife habitat, etc?
Please, take the test and use percentages of support or non support. Post the results, thanks.
13Oh, one last thing…many liberals think “The Big Change,” not realizing it is because of many, many small, hardly noticeable changes that “Big Change” comes about.
Want to get there? First, survey the land and start building your road. Any wild dreams are just so much distraction.
14“Rather than being a unit of the herd, humans conceive the tribe to be an extension of themselves.”
Profound. Worth integrating into every thought, every plan.
Hyperindividualism wreaks havoc on democracy…
15@maryelle
16I agree that talk radio since 1992 and Faux News begat the result of November 8 2016. I am astounded that others do not see through the BS spew from Rush and Hannity and Billo and so on. I adore Jim Hightower and Kinky Friedman but when their thinking turns to the purest BS spew I can tell and pay them no attention until they calm down. Dolph Briscoe the same, although he was not lefty he was a middle of the road conservative who found success in the Dem party. And he had an operational heart and thinking brain. Possibly the last Texas governor to have both.
Patrons,
My little bride just reminded me of Ann Richards. She too had an operational heart and thinking brain.
17I stand with progressives, and right now, Bernie Sanders is our de-facto leader. He has the right message. We need to be the party that stands up for the POOR and middle class. When is the last time you heard a politician speak up for the POOR? It’s always “the middle class” that gets their words of concern. Bernie’s message of taking on Wall Street corruption, helping to get us the things we want and need, like health care and education is a winning message.
18charles r. phillips, with you 100% and with everyone here calling for the unity we leftists* need to express going forward.
* or whatever the naysayers choose to call us. (I’m good with commie pinko prevert) But the main thing is whatever word the real perverts use, we need to adopt it and slap the taste out of their mouths with it.
It’s all about messaging and taking all that deflection, projection and flat out lying they use to call them out. So, yes, if the snacilbupeR choose to call me a prevert, it’s up to me to address why they pervert the US Constitution, religion, government and pretty much everything they touch.
Messaging what we want. charles r. phillips laid out a great list as our “rallying call.” Within each comment is a call for equality and education and a fair share of the goods. Equality is a solid basis toward the common goal.
Refinement of the message. That I’ll leave to y’all, daChipster, Primo and the fearless JuanitaJean Herownself, who are so much more prosaic and linguistically gifted than I.
From Charles’ list, ladies. Woman ‘splain it to us. Let us know where in the spectrum of women’s rights and reproductive health care we need to nail the forced birther snacilbupeR.
LGBTQA community, with you 100%, but again as with the ladies, I would ask that you define the terms you would like to be used to take the fight past marriage equality to include jobs, housing and all the other infringements you experience in the equality spectrum.
😀 Call it the 1005 movement. Check your keypads (that’s how I typo 100%) 😉
Leaving tomorrow and will be returning in a couple of weeks, but in the meantime our boys, ranch and what all politically needs to be done around our home will be better managed by Jane.
19Micr, Ann Richards is still contributing via her daughter, Cecile Richards. Senator Warren ain’t too shabby, either. Other ladies from whom we can learn: #BlackLivesMatter and Occupy Wall Street, plus many other groups.
20PKM, you are exhibiting one key aspect of our arsenal: duty!
“Duty! Sublime and mighty name that embraces nothing charming or insinuating but requires submission…It can be nothing less than what elevates a human being above himself (as part of the sensible world), what connects him with an order of things…”
(Perhaps our starting point is re-reading our Immanuel Kant)
That you are willing to risk an ass-kicking – or worse! – in this most moral of fights humbles me.
All you folks are saying some remarkable stuff! Keep it up!
21Primo: With all due respect, PKM nailed @ #1– way too cerebral. Go back and read your words. Now imagine you’re standing at a podium in front of a group of “average, everyday” Americans. Now say those words outloud. Sounds a tad snotty, no?
We have the ideas, knowledge and experience. We have nothing to apologize for except our inability to talk to average people in ways they embrace. Bill clinton could do that well. No matter how high-brow the thoughts or complicated the policies we MUST find a way to “bring it home” or it’s all just a waste of time.
22Primo, it’s not important to the points you’re making, but you should know that this bit
Genetically, the life of an individual is always subsumed to the life of the species.
is not science.
There’s no drive, or not much, for survival of the species.
The “drive” is for the individual genome to leave descendants. For humans, that’s personal; for ants, it’s one genome per anthill. There’s another, mostly-reinforcing drive at a much smaller level: changes in individual genes that increase the frequency of that gene in a population are favored, so it anthropomorphically looks as if genes “compete for survival”.
There was a long argument about whether group selection and thus non-personal, altruistic drive could be demonstrated for survival of closely-related genomes; the answer appears to be yes. You’ll probably do more to save your cousin’s life (and thus chance of reproducing) than for a stranger. And having Granny around seems to increase the chances that your kids will have kids that survive, so women have menopause and we’ll do a lot to help out the old girl when she needs help.
23I returned to make another point, then I read Joel Hanes’ comment and realized it’s a perfect example for my thoughts. Joel, I get what you said. It’s thought-provoking (for me) and interesting. But… to your average American you might as well be discussing how many angels fit on the head of a pin. My reaction to your comment (playing the part if one of those average Americans) would be, “Wut?”
THIS is why people aren’t hearing us. To simplify, all you wrote could be stated with this: most people are out for themselves. That is, after all, the essence of your comment. Too simplistic? Yes. Lacking in nuance? Yes. But average people “get it”.
These people will support tax cuts for the rich and wait for the “trickle down” that’s not coming. Why? Because it sounds good and nobody wants to take the time to explain simply how that won’t work. The industry-model of business has changed but who’s taking the initiative to explain that to America? The media? Ha! Have Democrats? Hardly at all. It’s not hard to explain and once you do people get it. But, no, let’s throw some more high-minded gobbledygook at them, then infer they’re too stoopid to understand. Yeah… a winning strategy that is.
I need a vacation.
24JAK – too snotty by half for a podium, indeed. Trust that we’re going to package it better later, and dig down now for the underlying truth.
Use as fancy or plain language as you care to. What is it we STAND for. What are our “ideas, knowledge and experience?”
It’s absolutely no challenge to stand in front of crowd and resonate. charles r’s checklist – with two exceptions – could be a call-and-response section of a speech to ANY political crowd in America.
Why do people who would answer seven of those nine questions in the same way fall to opposite ends of the political spectrum? Just on the basis of gays and guns alone? Are those two questions all that separate us?
I think not.
Is it as clean as Rhea and PP suggest, that the size of the tribe is the issue? We can eschew formalized religion, we can question the existence of the historical Yeshua ben Yusef of Nazareth…
But whoever wrote the message of peace and unity that eventually became the “Good News” had the same message.
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
But, who is my neighbor?
Lemme tell ya a little story about a good Samaritan.
A GOOD ONE? NO WAY!
Yes Way. And Yes Truth. And Yes Light.
But as a Mahatma once said, “Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Remember as we’re thinking about these things: there is 30% of the population you’re never going to reach. Lay aside trying to proselytize the unreachable, and figure out the common cords that can encompass the larger population and bind them together. What does it mean to be the best us that progressivism can bring?
Pancho – I like your thinking, but naming de facto national leaders is the opposite of what we need right now. The movement we need can be inspired, but not led, by the Bernie Sanders of the world.
We need commitment to ideals, and in the end EVERY politician has feet of clay. We don’t need the figurine, we need the plinth.
oops, there I go again with the cerebral…
THIS IS A GREAT DISCUSSION I LOVE IT! You all are wonderful.
25charles r. phillips … YES to all!!!
26From perspective of person born shortly before the Bomb, in the last month of FDR’s presidency.
Values I share:
Every person has value and deserves equality before the law. Women, people of color, disabled persons, immigrants, indigenous people…all have equal value as citizens, and all deserve equality before the law.
Human resources, whether undeveloped (as in children) or developed (in adults) must not be wasted by neglect or bigotry. To that end, a free, *quality,* public education for children and young adults is a necessity, with an aim of providing each with all the knowledge and skills that individual can amass. Although religious-based education can be allowed as an alternative, it must not be supported by the government, and should be supervised enough to ensure that the children are not taught falsehood and are given a good solid fact-based education. Supports as needed for children with disabilities must be provided; as the mother of a child who was once thought to have no real future, I assert that most disabled children have much to contribute if educated well.
Freedom is never absolute; responsibility is inextricably entwined with it. The most personal decisions (that affect the fewest people) should be the most free…the most general the effect (e.g., the more people and resources involved) the more responsibility should be assigned and enforced. How consenting adults have sex, who with (consenting, and adult, both being stipulated), and how a woman chooses to handle her reproductive capacity are things that should be left entirely to the individual. Whether someone accepts or refuses treatment for a serious illness, again, should be left to the individual.
Freedom does not including the right to restrict the same freedoms in others. IOW, freedom of religion means you can believe what you want, and join any religious group you want, but you cannot enforce your religion’s rules on anyone not of your religion…and the general common laws that govern the whole still apply (e.g. if your religion says it’s OK to kill a woman for being a rape victim…no, it’s murder and you’ll be tried for it.)
Natural resources (air, water, soil, etc) should be husbanded and shared for the benefit of all. Destruction of resources (polluting water, air, soil) is wrong and will ultimately ruin any society–as is happening now. Protection of remaining open lands, and better management of all land and water is necessary for the survival of the human race on this planet.
Where representation is by district, those districts must be as compact in area as possible: gerrymandering is wrong no matter who does it. I would propose at this point that there are better ways to ensure that every vote counts than by using geographical districts smaller than states (explanation available to anyone who asks.)
Citizenship by birth should be absolute. Citizenship for immigrants should follow a logical path that helps the immigrant become knowledgeable enough to cast an intelligent vote.
Every worker (immigrant or citizen, male or female, all races, all religions) should receive a wage sufficient to provide decent housing, food, clothing, and utilities.
Every person should be assured of access to medical care (including dental and eye) at a cost he/she can afford without losing housing, food, clothing, or job.
Decisions of governance should be made with regard to facts, ideally facts derived from careful observation, measurement, and logic by those trained in such tasks. No decisions should be made in order to placate any particular religious group unless (and it can happen, though rarely) the facts back up that group’s opinion.
Corporations are not people and should not be granted the rights of living persons.
Prisons should not be run by profit-making corporations but by the relevant government. Right now we have created a system that enriches the owners/stockholders of private prisons, law enforcement, and drug cartels: not good.
Health care should be free of religious restrictions; the increasing influence of religious for-profit hospitals that are replacing city/county/state hospitals is dangerous to the health and personal freedom of those in need of health care.
And a lot more but I just ran out of time.
27Laß uns fischen gehen, sagte der Angler zum Wurm!
Let’s separate the egoists(R) values from the empathetic(D) values. The first group loves Ayn Rand as much as they misunderstand her and embrace failed Trickle Down economics, bombing for friends and a hedonistic “every man for himself” philosophy.
As JAKvirginia and others have pointed out, big words and ‘understanding’ the snacilbupeR have left us spinning our wheels and digging a very big hole of our own.
FDR with his “New Deal” got social security started. It might do us well to review his folksy “Fireside Chats” to find our way back to expressing the empathy that binds us.
😉 Your study assignment, should you care to accept it: http://www.history.com/topics/fireside-chats
😀 I’ll be back to test your patience, oops, I meant quiz you, soon. Remember, big thoughts and little words. ~PKM the Grasshopper.
28My two cents, adjusted for inflation:
We have to stop thinking in monolithic terms (women want this, people of color want that, LGBT want this other thing). Those groups are made up of individuals, and while trends can be predicted, people cannot.
What we have here, what we’ve had for a long time and few of our so-called leaders have dared name it, is a class war. It’s not about sex or gender or race. It’s about money and power. It’s ALL about money and power.
We need to hammer on the facts and stay on message. Nellie Scott Hughes came right out today and said, “there’s no such thing as facts” (about illegals voting in large numbers). Bullshit. We need to call them on their bullshit. We need to ridicule them mercilessly, and STAY ON MESSAGE. Don’t bother engaging with true believers; just keep hammering away. Laughter changes minds. Arguments don’t.
Don’t let them divide us. Don’t let their trolls plant suspicions and turn the tables. Don’t let their talk show hosts continue to bill themselves as anything but what they are now: the main stream media.
“We must indeed all hang together,” Ben Franklin said, “or most assuredly we shall all hang separately.”
29We stand for Truth and must defend it constantly, but patiently whether the teahadists like it or not.
30How about Medicare for All? (You can pay more if you like, of course). Kills two birds with one stone, moreover.
Appeal to Americans’ sense of fairness (not justice, not equality.)
SOMEHOW, we need to wrest the Biblical high ground back from these mammon-serving and cynical self promoters! The Gospel is a story of hope and change (oh damn, that’s been used!!) via love and sacrifice, it is NOT a club to beat your neighbor with! Maybe Mr Carter has some ideas?
Related to this, we need to remind their greedy butts that there is no sin or crime in poverty; it has a lot to do with bad luck! (See also mammon, fairness)
Like PKM, I’ll be back to bother on some more later!
31You state that the divide is widening but what I saw says that the Texas vote for President was closer between the Rs and Ds than in more than a decade. Is that not true? If the gap is narrowing here in Texas, then we have to recognize that and figure out how to push it over the finish line. I think that means two things: running a D/progressive for every single race (from city council to President) and getting the Hispanics to the ballot box.
I know all the readers on here aren’t from Texas – sorry for you — but for the majority who are (1) Do you agree this is what we need to do and (2) how do we do it?
32Love the first idea! All politics is local, right?
For the second, well-let’s get EVERYONE to the ballot box! We need to engage and encourage young people, we need to make noise about these laws that suppress turnout and interfere with legal voters, we should check the Texas law on a convicted felon’s reinstatement rights, we should push for mail in voting like they do in Washington State (no lines, no onerous travel, AND a PAPER TRAIL). The higher the voter turnout, the better it is for liberal and progressive Democrats. That’s why the Rethugs push so hard for ID laws etc that put a burden on poorer folk, who they are convinced are all Democrats! But we certainly need to increase our representation to get these things moving!
33Primo- I think Pancho is on to something and I think our new Senate Minority Leader agrees. Mr. Sanders is the new chairman of the Senate outreach program. Organization is essential but every organization needs a leader and Senate Democrats seem to think Mr Sanders, if he isn’t hamstrung, is a pretty good leader.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/11/16/senate-democrats-tap-bernie-sanders-lead-outreach/93960822/
34http://theimmoralminority.blogspot.com/2016/12/donald-trump-spokesperson-comes-right.html
This is the stoopidity we are fighting against. She claims there are no facts. Unfortunately a boatload of the dumbest SOBs ever born believe her crap. We are doomed.
35Here’s an interview of Keith Ellison, from Think Progress;
https://thinkprogress.org/keith-ellisons-plan-to-save-the-democratic-party-organize-organize-organize-c983a27486df#.3w5jks1s3
I think he should be a leader in this effort.
36PKM–My daughter is also “one of those blasted dang millennials,” and if your attitudes are reflective of who the millennials are, I can hardly wait. She assures me you guys are coming as fast as you can. Thank you!
maryelle–Don’t give up hope on Dems. Remember that this time around, the snacilbuper hold all the keys to the kingdom–and if it crashes and burns (as it very well could), they won’t be able to turn and point the finger at the Dems as the problem. Didn’t work for Hoover, and I don’t think it will work for the Orange One. Put some of your faith in PKM and his “blasted dang millennials.” I think somewhere in the Clinton and Obama years, they got the message that our tribe is a big one and we’ll do better if we hang together.
Rhea–no, the snacilbuper *don’t* stand for “freedom to (do whatever you want)”; in fact, it’s closer to “freedom to (do whatever *we* want, as long as *we* get to tell *you* what *you* are allowed to do)”–and that’s where they’re wrong.
Annabelle Lee–Yes, I agree that it’s all about a class war. I’m convinced that the only reason the Orange One ran is so he can enrich Drumpf Enterprises; he has no interest in running the country, although I think he has huge potential for *ruining* it if some other folks in Washington don’t hold him back. I’m with Bernie and Elizabeth.
Aggieland Liz–Yea, let’s appeal to *fairness.* I think that’s really what we libruls are all about, if what we mean by it is that everybody gets a piece of the pie. (Remember that the snacilbuper response is that it’s perfectly “fair” for the Orange One to live luxuriantly without paying taxes because the ones who aren’t as important as he is don’t deserve to benefit from his–er–“hard work.”)
But my interpretation of “fairness” is that we all deserve the basics, which were food, clothing, and shelter when I was in grade school, but now I’d add education and medical benefits (yes, including dental and vision and yes, including options to buy additional coverage). And we deserve those other “public good” things like highways and libraries and national parks, and I’d add internet access to that list (even though the internet did us so much damage on this round; I think in the long run it has grand potential for good).
I am gobsmacked by the fact that so many of the Orange One’s followers are so adamant that the only people who “deserve” those things are the ones who “work hard” and that the reason they aren’t in the 1% is that the libruls haven’t been acknowledging their hard work, when their fearless leader has clearly gotten there by starting at the top and cheating his way up.
Primo–I think you’ve summed up most of what I think in your “progressive manifesto,” especially the bit quoted by Marion above.
I guess if I have any other thought to add, it’s that we need to learn to turn the conversation (see George Lakoff) to make our side clear and appealing. For example, I once butted heads with a confirmed anti-abortionist (they’re not really “pro-life”) who was so concerned about the poor, helpless baby that she couldn’t even see the 13-year-old rape victim who wanted an abortion.
As far as I’m concerned, women should *not* be encouraged to give birth if they are not physically, financially, educationally, and emotionally comfortable with bringing a child into the world. But we have to find a way to turn the conversation from “poor, helpless baby” to “deserving woman at risk of losing health, happiness, or even life.”
I don’t have a clue how to do that, but I think it’s where we’re going to need to start. And we’re going to have to do it on every one of these issues. And soon.
37“You managed to clean up and re-polish the turd known as Ollie North.”
my parents knew Larry & Betsy North, and I met them both a couple of times, when I was home from college. Yes, Larry, not Ollie. That was some media drone’s invention, no one who actually knew him (certainly not Betsy) called him that. My dad, a retired, combat veteran Marine NCO, didn’t think too much of (then) Maj. North. Betsy was an aide in my Mom’s 2nd grade class, at the private, Catholic School the North’s children attended. She was a very sweet lady, and everyone at the school loved her. He was an “on the make” douchebag, stationed at Quantico at the time. I remember the first time I heard him called “Ollie” on tv, and thought it was someone else. that’s when we also found out he’d gotten to the Pentagon (and made Col., finally). and then, I ended up indirectly involved in the Iran-Contra case, professionally. a story I can’t tell, because I’m prohibited by federal law from doing so. suffice it to say, I developed an appreciation for Lady Macbeth’s “Out damn spot!” line during that period. some sleaze just won’t wash off.
to the issue. I suggest we go back to what are considered by most people to be the founding documents of this here republic:
1. The Declaration of Independence: Wherein one Mr. T. Jefferson let the world know we were severing political ties with old Blighty, why we felt the need to do so, and that we had an absolute right to do so. With help from his friends.
2. The Constitution of the United States of America, as amended: What many historians consider the “Second Revolution”, bloodless thankfully. Put together when it was realized the Articles of Confederation, as a working document, weren’t working very well. This works a lot better and, the author’s being pretty smart guys, knew the times they were a gonna change, made sure this document could keep up with those inevitable changes, by making it amendable, as necessary. in fact, they even gave us a sample to use as a model: the first ten amendments, commonly known as The Bill of Rights.
we are all equal under the law, we all have the same rights (with some exceptions, voting for example), whether citizen or not. absent some incredibly compelling reason, the gov’t is expected to keep its nose out of your personal business, etc.
yes, many of our founders were slave owners, and John Adams was a jerk that hardly anyone could stand. give him credit, he at least recognized it. Jefferson recognized slavery was going to, at some point, become a major problem, and he knew intellectually it was wrong, as did many other founders, both slave owner and not. but, to get everyone on board, they kicked that can down the road, hoping it would get “fixed” in the future. it did, but not the way they hoped.
but, we have, in the present day model, the essence of this country’s survival as an entity, and continued improvement as a society: that we are all equal under the law, we welcome new people from other countries who come here to live in freedom and peace, we ensure our people have clean air/water/land/a good basic education (Jefferson was really, really big on this)/access to basic health care/a decent livelihood for those willing to make the effort/a dignified retirement for those past their work years.
that’s what I understand as being the basic premise of the Democratic Party, since 1964. we are not there yet as a country, we are a work in progress, and will probably always be. I honestly think the founders would be astonished, and disappointed, at what got elected on Nov. 8th. they weren’t perfect, and neither were their all their ideas, but they were a pretty damn good start.
38Folks, there are so many good ideas here in your posts! I would definitely say that we should give up flogging ourselves,especially in public where the media can eat it up. Trump deliberately appealed to the basest possible instincts of way too many people, rich and poor. They began thirsting after him and look what they got. Everything they don’t want, especially when it comes to the loss of the only health care a lot of them have ever had. They really do have buyers remorse and regret. They are going to be screaming for help. The “replacement” of ACA is going to look a lot like what existed years ago: state plans that will accept cancer patients but only to tell them there isn’t any money in the state fund to treat and maybe cure their cancer. Whaddaya say we not only hear them but give them a hand up by fighting like hell to save as much of ACA as we can. Most definitively remind the pols on The Hill of the old plan and how twisted and anti-human it was. Thats just one idea. More will come tumbling along.
39There are lots of great thoughts here. You folks are a pleasure to spend time with.
I also came to the conclusion that we are becoming tribal. My thoughts are not as cerebral as Primo’s, more of an ‘us’ versus ‘them’ (take your pick: Dem’s vs. Rep’s, thinking vs. unthinking, greedy vs. caring, civil vs. uncivil). I don’t know how to get beyond that except to try to find the middle ground in each case and focus on that. Maybe similar to the Dalai Lama.
Additionally, I think we need to pursue getting rid of the gerrymandering in all the states. In Illinois, we are gerrymandered for the Dems. Most other states, it goes Republicans. Let’s make them all fair.
Also, there should always be a check or audit for all elections! We need to know that our elections are fair in order to have faith in the system. Right now, many people–myself included–have lots of questions and suspicions about this election. And not just at the presidential level. It infuriates me that after the Ohio nonsense of 2008 and 2012 and even the hanging chads of 2000, we are dealing with an unclean election. Trust, but verify (didn’t somebody say that?).
Thanks for listening and have a great day.
40Hi:
I wish I had a better answer to your question but give this article a read:
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/11/the-dark-rigidity-of-fundamentalist-rural-america-a-view-from-the-inside/
Which I think demonstrates what we are up against.
Note that I took the http off the beginning of the story address as I didn’t want to post a live link without knowing how the Boss feels about them.
Mike in Boston (damn yankee is two words)
41Aggieland Liz, there is an op ed in the Washington Post this morning by Garrison Keilor, he of radio, film and some TV fame and – of source – Lake Woebegon. He mentions something I hadn’t heard in years but believe me it did and does exist. There are folks who refuse to vote inasmuch as they believe it would co-opt God’s business in ruling the universe. Yeah. I know! I can hear ya! Yes, they are dumping on God and this is something that still exists and needs attention. Exactly how I don’t rightly know at the moment but I am confident the answer will arrive at 4 in the morning and I will phone somebody with the revelation.
42Good points, Laura. We could get past the gerrymandering thing if we abolished the Electoral College and beefed up the Civil Rights Voting Law which was gutted by Scalia, Thomas and Co.
43We Progressives must fight against the teahadists not only to ensure our democracy, but the life of the planet. It’s just that serious. If necessary, we must drag our “low information” fellow citizens into the light.
JAKvirginia: I agree that our message needs to be gotten out in way everyone gets. Years ago, I was telling a friend that we needed a progressive version of Rush Limbaugh. Someone who spoke to people’s gut. Not so much with the high minded ideals. We had the Ed Show for awhile. Don’t know if it made any difference. Because people have to watch it to hear it. But keep one thing in mind. Primo’s not at a podium. He’s sitting in a chair with big ole hair dryer above his head. Not talking to average Joe’s. Talking to us.:-)
44cpinva,
“and then, I ended up indirectly involved in the Iran-Contra case, professionally. a story I can’t tell, because I’m prohibited by federal law from doing so.”
Shortly after the football player Tillman was killed in Afgan by his own unit of spec ops, I ended up in the VA hosp here in Houston with a broken upper leg from a bicycle accident. In the same room was a young man who was also in spec ops and knew all the players in that incident. He, too, felt he couldn’t say much because of his secrecy oath but I got enough out of him that I was left with the impression that Tillman the pro football player was deliberately targeted by his own troops and the whole episode was white-washed all the way up to the commanding gen’l over there. I encouraged him to write down a chronicle of what happened to have it exposed someday likely after he was gone or was too old to give a damn.
cpinva, I encourage you to do at least the same. Perhaps even sooner if you have carefully weighed the consequences and are willing to pay the price.
45I believe that the UMCJ states that a soldier does not have to obey an illegal order. Of course, whadehell does that mean? Especially after the fact when it becomes apparent the order was illegal?
Only you can make that decision. But the standard are people like Dietrich Boenhoefer, Protestant minister speaking out against the nazis from the get-go, who visited America just before the war and could have stayed here. He went back knowing full well that he’d likely not survive because he had to tend to his flock. He was executed 2-3 weeks before the surrender.
Could I do that? I won’t know until I’m in the equivalent situation tho I would most like to believe I would.
I do encourage you and others out there that have been put into an oath box under BS pronouncements; eg, apple pie, motherhood, you die for my country you sucka!, etc., to make a record that will eventually see the light of day in a timely manner to correct the historical record if needed.
Charles R Phillips: 100% here. And as Primo pointed out, most Americans now agree with most items on your checklist. What repugnantcans have done so effectively is convince a whole lot of people that liberals want so much more. Bleeding heart is a term they’ve tagged us with very well. Which, at least to me, speaks volumes about the current political thinking of a lot of folks. They’ve taken the free market idea and equated it to morality. Anyone who is poor is lazy or stupid, and therefore not worthy of our concern. Tribalism kicks in, and anyone who is gay, brown or different in some other way is THEM. And not worthy of our concern. They’ve taken the idea of tough love to the point of just being mean. Just so they can pay less taxes. And hopefully (for them) not have to see as many faces that they don’t identity with. I’m not expressing myself very well here, but I hope I’m contributing something folks will think about. I get a lot of inspiration from this joint.
46Charles R. Phillips- Hear, hear to Keith Phillips as head of the DNC!
PKM-I’d like to think that law enforcement at Standing Rock would treat you with deference but I’ve read such things as the history of the Bonus Marchers so I fear for your safety.
47Your courage is immense and your compassion, empathy and generosity towards your fellow man is even more immense. I’m not very good at prayers but I do a pretty job of crossing all my digits and they will remain crossed until I know you have made it safely home.