The Horror
I cannot begin to imagine the horror of people trapped in a church with no chance against a semiautomatic weapon.
I am very familiar with Comal County (the accent is on the first syllable – KO-maul). I have never been to Sutherland Springs but I am certain I have at least driven through it.
I do not know why the governor felt the need to open the press conference with a smile and a spirited defense of Texas. This is a law enforcement matter. We should be listening to the sheriff.
It’s never going to end, is it?
People in church were praying and it didn’t help them much. How is the bogus potus or Paul Ryan or Greg A-Butt’s prayers going to help? The victims needed sensible gun control and wingnuts will not deliver it, again.
1I have run out of words to describe this continuing tragedy. CDC needs to get involved, gun violence is an epidemic.
2No, JJ, it isn’t. Not until we get serious about gun control, and that’s not going to happen with Republicans in office. Too many of them listen more to the NRA than to their constituents. The NRA passes out tons money, and politicians want to keep the NRA happy so they can get theirs. Until that ends, tragedies like this one will continue.
3Cue the bought and paid for politicians “thoughts and prayers”
4Yeah, yeah, another massacre. I feel for the families and friends of those killed and for the people wounded, and I know that “wounds that were not thought to be life-threatening” can still mean that someone’s now a quadriplegic. But I’m not surprised that another gun massacre happened, and I’m not going to get excited about them any more. If gunning down twenty six-year-olds doesn’t change anything, then there’s not a damn thing I can do about it. This country is just f***ing insane about guns.
By the way, are we going to ban white Texas males in their 20s?
5Seems to me we really need to have a way to make sure military vets who are nuts (I know, not nice, but) have some kind of oversight on their purchase of arms.
6Shooter described as “young while male,” so, no, it’s not an act of terrorism, thank god./s
7… and yesterday people on Twitter were outraged because according to what some said, a registered Democrat tackled Rand Paul in or around his home. Not even sure how they could find that information on a Saturday… but why aren’t they just as upset about a registered gun owner (according to news reports, not “that one guy on Twitter”) today?
8Rhea, that’s not really the way you feel, and you know it; you just wish you were as heartless as the moneygrubbers who won’t do anything to slow this down because they sing praises to the NRA.
e platypus, you got it right.
9I can see the lights of Sutherland Springs from here (La Vernia and Stockdale are brighter), w/binocs or telescope could probably see it in the daytime, know Sheriff Tackitt slightly, he was/ran as a Democrat, his son might be a Rep now.
Know people there, it’s a very small place, about 35-40 miles down Hwy 87 outside of San Antonio.
Lots of history around here, lots of it bad (w/slavery, etc). This crap’s too close.
The alleged killer, ‘Devin Kelly’ (sp), was apparently from New Braunfels, dressed up and armed as your typical local RWNJ (but who knows? yet). I looked NB records up, as a 20-something appears to live with parents. New Braunfels is about 25 miles away using the back roads.
It sounds like a domestic, girlfriend-type problem to me; but why the effen Hell would he kill so many others (youngest was 5y/o per news).
I commented much earlier on a previous thread here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson_County,_Texas
10It sometimes appears we have – quite horrifically – come to a point where these mass murders are falling into the realm of “background noise” much as major auto collisions have. That is such a sad commentary on us.
11From what I’ve read this evening, a guy who lived next door to the church heard the shooting and came out with his rifle. The gunman was exiting the church and they exchanged fire. The gunman dropped his assault rifle and took off in his car, followed by the neighbor guy. They don’t know if the gunman died by his own hand or from the returned fire. Although it was brave of the man to confront the gunman, now we will all have to hear about the “good guy with the gun” as an excuse for everyone being armed to the teeth.
12My first thought when I heard of this was remembering what a grad. student told me about being shown a gun locker bigger than his clothes closet crammed with weapons when he was in Texas, and then followed buy how many more weapons must all of us buy to protect themselves per the NRA?
I personally think Texas is probably the most heavily armed state per capita in the U.S. and it didn’t do diddly for any of them.
This will not end.
13Right after posting, I read this on Raw Story:
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/11/texas-attorney-general-the-way-to-stop-mass-shootings-is-for-more-people-to-carry-concealed-weapons/
14TexasTrailerParkTrash,
There were two pursuers, one named Johnny L. (a 20-something too) gave an interview on SA ch12.
Unclear, but I understood that as the killer fled (after dropping his rifle, probably then mag-empty, but he had many others in his vehicle) the local challenging rifleman talked to Johnny, and both gave pursuit. Unclear whether in one vehicle or two, both likely armed in any case.
Johnny made mobile contact with LEO’s ATT during pursuit.
Killer drove his SUV northbound at high speed up winding, 2lane Hwy 539 and finally crashed at an ‘S-curve’ (I know it well, luvved driving it- at HiSpd).
It is also unclear whether the killer died in the crash (didn’t look so from video), killed himself (he supposedly had many other weapons in his vehicle), or was shot dead by the two pursuers.
In any case, without the ‘good guy’ pursuit by the two armed locals, the killer may have returned to New Braunfels; and then killed others, either in an eventual gunbattle, or by stopping ‘somewhere else’.
Per ‘Johnny’, the LEO’s on the highway were all headed southbound towards SS, while they and the killer were northbound towards Seguin/NB.
So it sounds to me that the armed locals did good.
I’ll probably be flamed, but I’m usually armed, as are many here.
Y’all watch the 10PM news, and or stream some local San Antonio TV channels for more detailed coverage (I’d rec ch12/KSAT, 29 and 4 are Sinclair and getting slanted, 5 is OK too +-).
15White male Christian terrorists are more murderous than any other people in this country. They must be targeted.*
*Yes, sarcasm.
16For all the “good guy with the gun” supporters, let me say this, hopefully without harshing your mellow: when the police pull up as they inevitably will it is not possible for the police to sort out the good guys with firearms from the bad guys with firearms. (There isn’t a program at the door and bad guys typically refuse to count off.) Both guys with guns will likely be subjected to police handling. A highly adrenalated guy with a gun who carelessly or foolishly points his firearm generally at a highly adrenalted police officer is likely to get shot first, then shot again and then questioned after he’s dead.
This whole neighbors engaging the shooter with their rifles might have worked out because in this small town everybody knows everybody. But the smart money would have been to wait for the first law enforcement officer on the scene. Other options were available. Frankly with mobile phones having cameras and mobile phones being every-damn-where, there ought to be 5,000 pictures of the shooter.
17@Micr—Thank you for that. My son-in-law is a police officer here in Fredericksburg. One of my greatest worries is that he could be in a situation like this where people are shooting and he would have to be the one to figure out who’s the “good guy” and who’s the bad one.
18@TTPT
19Sadly from the perspective of the 64 year old retiree and granddad reviewing the 24 year old peace officer’s work, I suspect that sadly the 24 year old police officer would have drawn a line in the sand and said “shoot ’em all and let G*d sort ’em out”. I’m not proud of that truth today but things were pretty clearly black and white 40 years ago.
Here’s a link to a Daily Kos commenter on a thread over there that has the San Antonio TV CH12/KSAT video interview with ‘Johnny L.’ I mentioned; y’all watch it, most interesting:
https://www.dailykos.com/comments/1712955/68254673#comment_68254673
(BTW, lots of whack comments on that thread, lefties are almost as bad as RWNJ’s at times…)
Micr and the rest, among other things, y’all mostly live in cities where LEO’s, FD’s, and EMT’s are just a call and a few minutes away. The fire depts (and EMT’s) in most places here are volunteers, mine is about 10 miles away.
Actually, the people over in that part of the county voted against establishing a taxing district for a VFD, when the one serving them couldn’t carry it anymore.
It is far different out here in the boonies, particularly in a very small town like Sutherland Springs, without a police force (they depend on the Sheriff’s Dept, IIRC).
The nearest police are ~8 miles either way on Hwy 87, in La Vernia and Stockdale, the sheriff’s patrol the whole county from Floresville.
Yeah, they can sometimes respond in a reasonable time frame, but not often. A local response is best, IMO, and played out OK.
In recent years the Sheriff’s Dept has gotten much bigger, before there was maybe one deputy patrolling at night (some are/were my neighbors), a few in the daytime, in a county of over 800 square miles.
We’ll just have to disagree a bit. IMO, my explanation and rationale is much more plausible than yours for this environment.
A little remembered incident some years ago that resulted in several LEO’s (incl DPS) getting killed occurred over in Atascosa County to the SW of Wilson. The killer set up an ambush for them, I don’t remember why or details, but it affected my (then) neighbor deputy ATT, a real nice guy.
20I live in a rural area of Hawaii. It might take police 15-20 minutes to respond to a call.
But guess what? We have the strictest gun laws in the nation. Hardly any bad guys have guns. Almost no crazy people have guns. That allows the good guys with a gun to hunt boar or shoot skeet.
21On Google maps I looked up Sutherland Springs. It really is tiny, about 8 blocks by 8 blocks. I switched to satellite and it was easy to find the church. F**k. Back in the day I preached at 5 different churches that size. F**k.
Via telephone, NBC talked to a mother and grandmother of people who were in attendance at the church. She had 2 little grandbabies in the hospital, the 5 yo wasn’t going to make it. Her daughter got shot, doesn’t know where she is, what hospital. It’s a f**king nightmare.
If there was tight screening for gun ownership, if the 2nd amendment was enforced as it was intended, there would be absolutely no need for a good guy with a gun. Also, cops would shoot far, far fewer black people because they’d be extremely unlikely to have a gun. Cops would not be trigger happy.
I feel sick. F**k.
22Micr, (forgot):
My most simple, direct refutation of your well-considered comment was that by the time any LEO’s arrived on scene, the killer was 10 miles up Hwy 539!
For how long, and how much more damage might he have done, if those local ‘good guys’ had not engaged him and pursued the killer to his death? LEO response was way behind the situation, just due to the terrain (and it being a light-shift Sunday).
I sure consider them true heroes, damn it.
I have never been one to be, IMO, overly dependent on the almighty “authorities”, as 90% of modern ‘Murican’s now are.
But then I’m also somewhat offended by all this BS modern “hero worship” and fawning over the military and LEO’s/”First Responders”. That path leads to fascism, IMO.
Besides, it’s also probably a ‘city v. country’ living thing too…
23@Sandridge
Reasonable men disagreeing is ok and expected.
Do you remember young THP Trooper Randy Vetter killed by so-called sovereign citizen Melvin Edison Hale, 72, in Hays County near Kyle in 2000?
24@Sandridge
My brother has a bumper sticker that says “I carry a handgun because police officers are too heavy”. I understand your point.
25Kelley was licensed by the Texas Department of Public Safety as a security guard and was able to purchase an AR15 + a bulletproof vest with a bad conduct discharge. Small government doesn’t work too well.
26Micr @24,
Yes, I remember it well. Didn’t know about the shooter being a RWNJ, knew he was pissed about a tax problem or something. That incident brought about a lot of procedural changes for the DPS and LEO’s, even nationwide IRO approaching traffic stops.
I also remember another very bad incident back home in the Valley. It happened on Hwy 100 about 3 miles east of Los Fresnos, TX (going towards Bayview). IIRC, mas o menos, the killer was on the lam or something (or maybe not) and killed at least two local officers and a DPS trooper (or viceversa).
I remember that partly because a while before that I had helped out a DPS officer at the scene of a traffic fatality almost at the same place on 100 (I traveled the road almost twice-weekly at least, sometimes everyday if working the beach).
27I always wondered if the Trooper I assisted was one of those killed, but I didn’t know/remember his name from the accident.
The DOS was apparently speeding (you …’could’… get going 120mph+ on that very long straight stretch of then usually empty highway, don’t ask…) and somehow got wiped out (IIRC, a Mustang), but not that much damage, odd.
He was kind of swollen but nothing serious-looking chopped up, like some, and just sitting bolt upright in the rear seat, dead as a hammer. Weird. I helped the trooper get his wallet out of his jeans pocket too.
BTW, I did some research on Kelley the killer.
28Lived adjacent to his parents on their ~30 acres near New Braunfels (NB is very expen$ive now).
Property market value= ~$793,770, total appraised value= $487,220. Home value=$462,520 for +3700sqft home, plus a smaller one for son.
The huge difference reflects the ag allowances for land.
Need more info, write. Don’t normally dox much.
Nut’n here move on now this happens from time ta time.(seems weekly now)
29Only thing fear is them LIBERULS Come to try and take yo GAWD GIVEN WRITES TO GUNS AWAY.
So All YAl come on down to Billy Bob’s Gun Range and Beer Barn to pick up a new FN FiftySeven and the new 40 round clips. Don’t you forget pick plenty a cases of Ammo. Cause all you Gawd Fearing folks Know Hillary and that muselman are coming to shut us down.
Some guy on MSNBC said churches should have armed guards securing the perimeter of property on Sunday mornings. Armed guards, securing churches! Says a lot about gun crazy America. I was gobsmacked.
30“Last year’s UK firearms fatality count of 26 reached in Texas shooting alone. We have “mental health issues” here too. It’s guns. The end. ”
31https://t.co/q4hPwSgkw7
Y’all looking at this all wrong…the shooter is an angel from gawd, to collect more souls for heaven. That is why he was shooting his ‘enter heaven now’ bullets in church! If he was evil he would have been at the mall sending all those sinners to hell.
32I finally agreed with something our imitation president said, Mental health is the issue. Starting with the president and his cabinet and continuing to the wholly owned subsidiary of the NRA otherwise known as the US Congress.
33Seems to me that a man named Obama managed to pass legislation to stop the mentally ill from buying weapons, no
34guesses who repealed it.
Yes, the NRA gives lots of money to their favorite politicians. But it’s not as much as you might think, compared to what outfits like Big Pharma and the chemical industry give. What the NRA does better than anybody else is to get their members to vote. The way for sensible people to fight the NRA is to get other sensible people to vote. Our politicians won’t do anything about this until they fear the voters.
35Virginia says:
November 5, 2017 at 7:29 pm
Seems to me we really need to have a way to make sure military vets who are nuts (I know, not nice, but) have some kind of oversight on their purchase of arms.
How does this make any sense- Bowe Bergdahl pled guilty to walking away from his unit in Afghanistan. He was dishonorably discharged, no jail time, diagnosed with mental illness and stripped of his Veteran’s insurance because of the DD.
He is exactly the kind of candidate to go postal on innocents and our government seems to want to encourage this.
36MS. Juanita Jean Herownself, yes, we can end this insanity of open season on our right to assemble in our schools, churches and other public place.
First we communicate with anyone in the local or national media who repeats the “nothing is being done” mantra. Teach them a few investigative skills. I’m neither a reporter or a sleuth, but it took less than a minute for me to learn that Lamar Smith is the Congress varmint for TX-21 and that he has an A+ rating with the NRA.
Polls indicate that somewhere between 70-90% of the people support sensible gun safety laws, while Congress does nothing. We need to work with our towns, cities and states to identify for the people which of their representatives are not representing them. And again, hound both local and national media with the facts.
Heard too many times today from too many people on the media venues that the National Instant Criminal Background Check System is broken. They pronounced it to sound like “nix.” That can be fixed. Same solutions as mentioned above.
37Jane & PKM,
Not sure why you are mentioning TX-21 and Lamar Smith (R-Valero/etc) here, he does not represent any of Wilson County, and never has.
Wilson County is split between two US Rep Districts:
TX-28 (Henry Cuellar (D-DINO, Laredo) on the west half, and
TX-15 (Vincente Gonzalez (D-?, McAllen) on the east half.
The boundary runs somewhere close to Sutherland Springs, TX as it cleaves the county N-S.
Both of these “Fajita Strip” districts are solidly Democratic, but low-voter-turnout the further south you go. Grading from more Anglo in the north to near solid Hispanic going south.
They each stretch from near San Antonio all the way down to the Rio Grande Valley (90%+ Hispanic Tex-Mex), a distance of ~275 miles long and as narrow as 8-10 miles wide in several ‘pinch points’.
It’s frickin’ crazy, as there is little commonality in the breadth of them WRT demographics, economy, etc.
The San Antonio area is the center of about 6-7 US Rep District ‘fingers’ that radiate out like wheel spokes for up to 800+ miles. All part of the Rethuglican gerrymandering schemes to hamstring Democrats, as we all know.
.
38Oops, links:
TX-28
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas%27s_28th_congressional_district
TX-15
39https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas%27s_15th_congressional_district
Sandridge, thank you. My bad; not being familiar with Texas towns allowed the Google to lead me astray. The article states what Lamar said; not that he represented the area. Here’s where I jumped off the dock:
https://lamarsmith.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/smith-statement-on-sutherland-springs-shooting
40Then, compound that error by failing to consider the reality of NRA politics which led to a representative from another district popping up to represent the NRA before the 2 guys who did represent the area even opened their mouths.
41Amen.
42Ghastly!!! I think the perp was actually seeking suicide by cop. Only the autopsy will reveal if he actually got his wish via the bystander who confronted him as he left the scene.
43Aggie was actually maggie. The difference is important.
44maggie, micr, janepkm, et al,
Per TV news right now the killer did commit suicide after crashing his vehicle.
He was apparently severely wounded by the good guy with a rifle and probably crashed due to the wound, then shot himself. As I outlined previously and caught flak for.
Enroute he called his dad and told him he didn’t think that he would make it home to New Braunfels.
My unmentioned, so far, questions have been that we have heard nothing from the killer’s parents. They are apparently fairly well off (NB home and acreage worth ~$800K).
The killer was driving a very nice SUV (even a sunroof), as an apparently then unemployed former security guard. He was employed at Schlitterban this summer as an unarmed security guard, and was terminated for unspecified reasons.
The LEO’s are praising both of the good guys as heroes who likely prevented further bloodshed, especially the guy with the rifle who engaged the killer just outside the church, shooting and wounding him.
They also have clearly specified that this massacre involved a domestic problem that the killer had with his MiL, who attended the 1st Baptist church (which I also theorized).
Also thought I heard that a ten month old baby who had been shot has now died in hospital. Damn…
45Hans Fiene is a Lutheran pastor ACTUALLY said what I posted above…..
46https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2017/11/06/even-if-i-felt-like-praying-now-im-too-terrified-to-try/
The most maddening thing about this story: to some extent, the Air Force bears some responsibility, though obliquely.
Kelly served a year in military prison for assault, when he attacked his infant stepson so violently that he fractured the child’s skull. He was also convicted of domestic abuse against his wife.
After giving Kelly a Dishonorable Discharge, the Air Force was supposed to report his violent domestic abuse criminal record to the federal database, which would have prevented him from purchasing a gun from an authorized seller. The AF neglected to do so. Oops.
If Kelly had been prosecuted in a domestic court, I’m sure he would have received a much longer sentence, and probably would still be in prison now. And his felony conviction and criminal record would have made it into the database. He probably would still have been able to purchase his weapons through the gin show loophole, or a private seller. But as it was, he walked into a retail store, and bought deadly weapons as easily as purchasing a pack of gum.
I know that going to an all-volunteer military has strained their resources. But the AF had clear evidence of how violent and dangerous this animal was. And after restraining him for only a year, they released him into the country that they’re charged with protecting, without so much as a warning. It’s unconscionable.
47