Let’s Talk about Israel
Dangerous territory, but I’m going there…
NOTE: Let it be known that I’m pretty much a heathen. My father and grandfather were pulpit pounding, Bible thumping hell fire and brimstone preachers, and I got more Jesus and God pounded into me before I was 6 than most people get in a lifetime. In my early adulthood, I took a hard look at Christianity, even taking classes in theology for my own edification. The conclusion I came to in my early 30s was that deity-based faiths are pretty much mythology wrapped in threats of fiery death if one didn’t comply with certain precepts in those faiths. I rejected this mythology in favor of a more tolerant approach to all faiths (and no faith). Since then, I’ve followed my own path, studying everyone from Thomas Merton to Shunryu Suzuki, who brought Japanese Soto Zen buddhism to the US in the 1950s. This is the perspective I bring to this discussion of the decades long conflict in Palestine, now commonly known as Israel.
I bring this up as I have had a number of conversations this past week or so after violence erupted in Israel again, where Israel is using war planes and missiles to indiscriminately kill Palestinians in Gaza as Hamas retaliates by firing uncontrolled rockets back at Israel. Depending on who you talk to, Israel is simply defending itself or committing genocide, and to say it out loud, those opinions are pretty much divided between Jewish and non-Jewish. Also, social conservatives almost always land on the side of Israel, some because they’re Bible thumpers, too, or just taking everlasting Republican positions.
The Israeli government always talks about how complicated all this is and they’re simply trying to stop terrorists from attacking them. They like it complicated, because what they are really doing is committing genocide, and they don’t want you to see that. That’s right; the very people who suffered mightily in the European holocaust are doing exactly the same thing to the Palestinians and have been for decades. Before you go hair on fire, here’s the definition of genocide as defined in 1944 by a Jewish Polish legal scholar, Raphael Lemkin:
“More often [genocide] refers to a coordinated plan aimed at destruction of the essential foundations of the life of national groups so that these groups wither and die like plants that have suffered a blight. The end may be accomplished by the forced disintegration of political and social institutions, of the culture of the people, of their language, their national feelings and their religion. It may be accomplished by wiping out all basis of personal security, liberty, health and dignity. When these means fail the machine gun can always be utilized as a last resort. Genocide is directed against a national group as an entity and the attack on individuals is only secondary to the annihilation of the national group to which they belong.”
This definition has been widely adopted and refined by legal and historical scholars and referenced in international law. The court that has jurisdiction over Palestine/Israel is the International Criminal Court, and the definition of genocide in Article VI of their governing statute is:
“…includes various acts “committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group” as such, including:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; and
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.”
By this definition, the Israeli government is, and has been, committing genocide against the Palestinian people by taking their property and ghettoizing where they remain, restricting movement, limiting employment, viciously enforcing draconian laws, indiscriminate killing, and even restricting their access to water. That’s right, since 1967 it is illegal for Palestinians to access any water from the Jordan or the West Bank or even to collect rain water. The Israeli courts twist the laws against the Palestinians and are tools for taking property from them. The more I study this issue, the more outraged I become.
In this last week, I’ve had some pretty tense discussions on social media and other forums, and I’m shocked at how so many of the people I’ve engaged simply parrot Israeli talking points. Let’s be clear here. Israel, with the backing of the United States and Britain, have annexed 100% of Palestinian lands since 1948, killing untold thousands, and committed atrocities that rival those of World War II and other violent conflicts. The US sends about $4.5 billion a year to Israel, over 90% of which is for war making. In contrast, the US sends the Palestinian Authority $500 million, over 75% of which is for humanitarian purposes. Oh, and Trump even cut that off for the 4 years he infested the Oval Office; that order was reversed in April of this year. Since they started taking land in 1948, over 700,000 Palestinians were forced from their homes into refugee camps in Jordan and elsewhere. In 1948 alone, Israelis destroyed and depopulated 700 Palestinian villages. Israel has never, despite the UN declaration they used to take Palestine, officially recognized a Palestinian state or the right of Palestinians to live within its borders.
The excuses I’ve heard? “Oh, those people in East Jerusalem are being evicted over a real estate dispute,” and, “The Arab world is huge; they can just move to another country,” and, “Israel is simply defending itself,” and “Hamas are terrorists firing rockets supplied by Iran,” and “So and so broke into a Jewish family’s house and murdered all of them.” Oh, and then there’s this nugget, “There’s no such thing as Palestine; Palestine is the invention of the British.” That’s pretty rich, since the name Palestine is derived from the Greek Philistia, which was the term used to describe these lands by Greek writers 3,000 YEARS AGO. It goes on and on, with excuse after excuse, most word for word propaganda from the Israeli government and its mouthpieces. Essentially, normally good people rationalize the genocide happening in Israel by cherry picking information or outright lying to support their predispositions. It’s pretty amazing.
The late human rights lawyer and Center for Constitutional Rights Board President Michael Ratner also accused Israel of “incremental genocide” in this statement:
“There’s no doubt again here this is ‘incremental genocide,’ as Ilan Pappé says. It’s been going on for a long time, the killings, the incredibly awful conditions of life, the expulsions that have gone on from Lydda in 1947 and ‘48, when 700 or more villages in Palestine were destroyed, and in the expulsions that continued from that time until today. It’s correct and important to label it for what it is. I want to emphasize today [that] these killings are part of a broader set of inhuman acts by Israel constituting international crimes, carried out by Israel over many years, going back to at least 1947 and 1948. They include crimes that aren’t talked about that much in the media or the press, the crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity, and apartheid. These crimes can be prosecuted in the International Criminal Court and are defined there.”
The tragedy of this conflict is that the very people who suffered such mammoth atrocities and genocide at the hands of the Nazis are doing, and have been doing for decades, the same thing to the Palestinians. AND, they’re doing that with American tax dollars. That simply has to stop, and I’m going to keep talking about it.
Admittedly, I am only somewhat knowledgeable of the history as it pertains to world history in general. That being said, what you have have are two peoples that claim the same land as their holy land. Both can trace that back well over 2000 years. So, we need to put a lot of this on the UN when they created Israel in the first place.
The trouble is too many Americans feel a natural affinity to the Israelis, so they can’t look at this situation objectively. I’m not sure if it is possible for these two groups to share the land equitably, but the Israelis certainly don’t appear to be trying. John Pavlovitz writes a blog and new ones are released a few times a week. His latest one is on this crisis. He features a YouTube video with a ten year old Palestinian girl who seems obviously distraught. It is uncomfortable as hell to watch, but it’s something that will enhance our understanding of the human condition there.
1Thank you for laying that out in a succinct and factual way. It should be shouted from the rooftops so poeple really know what is happening.
2Thanks for this. If you are on Twitter, what is your handle so I can follow you?
3I am definitely not knowledgeable enough on the history so I won’t pretend to be. However, to make matters worse, Netanyahoo is leading the charge. He’s about as capable of negotiating peace as a rattlesnake.
4He did say thoughts and prayers for dead civilians.
Reuters: Biden urges ‘de-escalation’ in Israel-Gaza fighting, Netanyahu says will press on ~
Bennie says: “Thanks eversomuch for the arms deal! We almost ran out of munitions. “
5From a military standpoint Israel has committed a number of errors for decades that Bibi has exacerbated.
1. Never grab more land than you can effectively/safely occupy
2. Leave a buffer zone around that you intend to protect
By expanding out the settlements, there’s no longer a serviceable buffer zone. Plus those actions are a provocation each and every time the Israelis “relocate” a Palestinian family. As for the US involvement AIPAC has successfully lobbied our Congress and presidents for military hardware to the detriment of both the Israeli and Palestinian people.
That defeated the purpose of the Iron Dome defense to a large degree. Move back the settlements to allow the defense to function as it was designed. If Bibi proves to be intransigent on the issue counter with no more $$$ for offensive weapons.
6Thank you for a pretty darn clear picture of what’s going on. It sickens me that this country seems to have blinders on whenever Israel TAKES more from the Palestinians because they WANT MORE, and we pay for a large part of that effort.
7In lieu of weapons, We’re sending 10 boxes of toy soldiers to keep you Occupied from taking settlements belonging to Gaza.
Published on
Wednesday, May 19, 2021
Ocasio-Cortez Unveils Resolution to Block Biden’s $735 Million Weapons Sale to Israel
“We should not be sending ‘direct attack’ weaponry to Prime Minister Netanyahu to prolong this violence.”
The Biden administration first notified Congress of the proposed weapons sale on May 5, just days before Israel began its latest deadly bombardment of Gaza. Under current law, the House has just 15 days to object to the weapons sale with a resolution of disapproval.
But in a press release on Wednesday, Ocasio-Cortez’s office noted that “after that time period has lapsed, Congress can still block or modify any sale up to the point of delivery.” full article:
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2021/05/19/ocasio-cortez-unveils-resolution-block-bidens-735-million-weapons-sale-israel
8Two wrongs never make a right. Netanyahu is a crook, this allows him to hang on a little longer. once a hero he now joins the group of leaders who would be king. As for the other side of the story, have not seen much over the years to convince me that there leaders have done much for their people. Its a MESS and taking sides is not helping. Some balance needs to be brought into play. Solutions, I have none. Thank you Jane & PKM. GOOD POINT.
9Bullshit. There are Palestinians with full political rights. They are the ones whose greatgrandparents (for whatever reason, often poverty) did not evacuate their homes in order to make it easier for the armies of Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Egypt to drive the Jews into the sea.
So, there might be murder but there cannot possibly be genocide. Not until Israel turns on its own citizens.
There have been — last I checked — 2 deaths in the West Bank in the current fight. There would have been 0 in Gaza had the Gazans simply refrained from launching missiles into Israel.
American public opinion is deeply divided but there is no way it would have tolerated bombing of Gaza if Gaza had not attacked.
Hamas is happy to sacrifice a few Gazans; plenty more where those came from.
10genocide |ˈjenəˌsīd|
11noun
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.
Sorry, I had to open some windows. Killing, sacrificing, murdering are variations of war. Blow that gas up someone else’s ass please.
12At this rate the Palestinians will be gone in 10,000 years, assuming they don’t have any children.
You might argue that Netanyahu maneuvered Hamas into striking first, because Hamas has so organized itself that it can never allow itself to be peaceful. Very clever if that was his plot but it was not the Israelis who created Hamas and its ideology.
You might want to ask the Jordanians and Lebanese how much they liked being hosts to the Palestinians. There is a reason that no Arab government wants anything to do with them.
13ALJAZEERA: Video shows Israeli settler trying to take over Palestinian house
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/4/if-i-don't-steal-your-home-someone-else-will-jewish-settler-says
~ Including Update from Sheikh Jarrah Families
14Harry @10 – Yep, that’s the typical response from those brainwashed by Israeli propaganda. It’s not bullshit, and you are wrong historically and wrong on the facts. The Palestinians have limited rights in almost all situations including where they can live, where they can travel, where they can work (if at all), and even if they can have water. Your assessment is pretty much right down the Zionist middle, complete with your stereotyping of Palestinians as a people @13. Without historical context, you can’t accurately assess what’s happening now.
15Harry @10 – That’s alternate history best left to works of fiction. As we speak, rival Jewish and Israeli Arab mobs are attacking businesses, cars and people in cities across Israel. I watched a news video last night showing a mob destroying an ice cream shop in Bat Yam just because the owner was Arab. Jimmy Carter got it right when he said Israeli policy in the West Bank represented instances of apartheid. It is not anti semitic to condemn the Israeli government in general and Bibi in particular.
16El Jefe: typically I disagree with considerable parts of your commentaries about half the time. This time I agree with you 100%. Thank you for bringing this out.
17I have always found it interesting that most major religions (the ones with large worldwide followings) always seem to have one directive (sometimes less obvious but always somewhere in the teachings): Believe as I do (e.g., mine is the path, thou shalt not have any other…, etc, etc, etc).
The unwritten extension has also always been “or I get to kill you (or abuse you, or …)”.
Kind of make me wonder if all the positive aspects of religions (providing comfort, spiritual sustenance, setting out principles that a functioning society to exist, etc, etc, etc) are enough to balance the ‘believe as I believe’ directive.
18Ancient cousins in another shit show of death. When will this insanity end?
19Someone said it several posts ago, but I don’t think this can be overemphasized. Not supporting Israeli agression in the Palestinian homeland is NOT supporting Antisemitism. I, in no way, am antisemitic, but I cannot support the history of aggressive acts of the Israeli government.
20My god is my realtor.
Your title is fake.
Get OUT!
**************************
@13…”You might want to ask the Jordanians and Lebanese how much they liked being hosts to the Palestinians. There is a reason that no Arab government wants anything to do with them.”
The comment above about the character of Palestinians is as racist as it gets.
21********************************
El Jefe: Word!
My mom had a dear friend who would exclaim, God gave us that land! To which she dearly wanted to respond, the Sicaog’s god gave them West Hartford, do you want to give it back?” She had great restraint.
Imagine there’s no religion….
22The Arab world generally wants Israel totally gone and Israel can only lose once. Bad actors abound. This conflict seemingly falls in the category of the “wicked problem” with no simple solution. But not much changes unless people strive for solutions that don’t require using force. Talking about it *is* indeed required.
23I totally agree with your commentary. I once asked an Israeli supporter why they had adopted Nazi-tactics against Palestinians, and you’d have thought I had released the gas into the chambers personally.
Lebensraum
Ghettoisation
Just two of the tactics.
24G Foresight, correcting historical mistakes when both sides have legitimate claims is never easy. But you are totally correct. It requires the cool calm negotiating skills former President Jimmy Carter took to Camp David, twice. Once to cool down the situation in Northern Ireland with the Brits and again when he hosted Egypt’s President Anwar el-Sadat and Israel’s Prime Minister Menachem Begin to a summit.
Who in the Biden administration has the skills and the luxury of the time to do what Carter did? I’d take history one step further back than El Jefe did to the Balfour agreements. Maybe there’s a statesman left in Great Britain who might care to address the total FUBAR of their racist creation(s). Or not, since they are still stuck on stupid as regards Ireland, pretty much similar to our own FUBARS as regards both racism and our treatment of the First Nations.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel has done quite well with Syrian refugees, maybe she can advise President Biden as to a path forward.
25El Jefe @ 10 Read what I wrote. Then you can apologize when you’ve spotted your error.
26@Harry – I read your comment and understood it completely. I’m waiting with bated breath for your explanation on how your comment is not historically wrong and ethnically bigoted.
27My opinion exactly, and I haven’t really been following this closely over all these years. I just read and listen to the news.
28El Jefe you delivered as promised, what most would describe as “where angels fear to tread” territory. BTW, excellent job in introducing a discussion way long overdue.
What is good for both the Israeli people and the Palestinian people conflicts with what is good for Bibi and the American MIC. If we pause to scrub religion and fascist territorial politics out of the equation and focus on the humanitarian issues, the focus becomes the middle ground where if we insist on sincere negotiations we may have a shot at peace.
My main points would be if American conservatives are so allegedly fiscally conservative then why do they refuse to stop bombing for friends, a policy proven wrong a infinitum. As to the hardliner Zionist Likud and Bibi who claim to want the preservation of Israel, then why do they do everything conceivable to prevent that from ever happening?
So far President Biden has maintained a balance as to how to cope with Bibi. But again, I recommend he consult with Angela Merkel and others before he selects who best inside or outside of his administration to start a peace dialogue.
29In the following link, ask yourself the question posed by the author concerning republicans and Israel!
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4e933c428a4755d6e2a4f5ca4a92fddf4b4a59fcde51571963213c7b6c65750e.jpg
30Unless and until the Palestinians, all political parties and governments representing the Palestinian people ( I use that term because they use that name for themselves. It does not constitute an endorsement of any territorial claims.) are willing to make certain assertions, and abide by the principles of those assertions, there is no point talking. Basic principles include:
1) A clear, public and unequivocal assertion that Israel and the Jewish people have the right to exist.
(This does not say where or how they are to exist, merely that they have the right.)
2) That both Israelis and Jews, as a people, have the right to peace. As all other people do. This does not mean Jews cannot be attacked or killed. Just that you cannot attack or murder them simply because they are Israelis or Jews.
Start with that and we can talk. So far, much of this comes from Yasser Arafat (YA) but present Palestinians have never denounced, rescinded or substantially modified YAs diplomatic stance toward Israel and Jews.
Yes, the Palestinians have officially recognized that Israel exists but this is not the same as saying it has the right to exist. Previously YA sanctioned the killing of Israelis and Jews anywhere in the world. Both as nationality and ethnicity. This, AFAICT has never been reversed.
YA called for breeding to create an army to defeat the Israelis. It was popularly termed ‘Fucking for victory’. In effect dedicating its entire population to the destruction of Israel as a nation and Jews as a people. Toward this end Palestinian children are commonly indoctrinated to hate Israelis and Jews with propaganda that both vilifies and dehumanizes the nationality and ethnicity.
Palestinians vaporize and call heroic, and reward the families of people who kill Israelis and Jews.
Palestinians vilify and murder Palestinians who participate in Joint Palestinian/ Israeli peace programs, socialize or cooperate with Jews.
YA roundly and completely rejected any talks of a two-state solution.
Essentially, the Palestinian people have openly and loudly called for the elimination of Israel as a state, anywhere or any time, and Jews as an ethnicity world-wide. They have called for and cheered on several wars intended to eliminate the state of Israel. They have planned and executed plots to capture and kill Israelis and Jews simply because they were Israelis or Jews.
Until the Palestinian people, their representatives and governments, comply and address those issues I don’t really care what Israel does with them. They have the right to protect themselves against a foe that doesn’t see them as humans or deserving life. The good news is that despite this viciousness and many provocations Israel doesn’t seem to be interested in genocide. A remarkable restraint given that the Palestinians prime motivation, even at the expense of their own children, seems to be genocide against Israel and Jews.
Nobody can negotiate or come to terms with a party that doesn’t admit to your right to exist. Any more than one can negotiate with a rabid dog.
It is sad what has happened with the Palestinians. They are clearly being used by other Arab nations. They are commonly used as cheap labor in Saudi Arabia and other rich Arab nations. They are used as mercenary forces and as a foil against Israel.
But, keep in mind that if the Palestinians become problematic, these same allies have always maintained the freedom to kill any or all local Palestinian population en-mass. As was the case in Jordan in 1970, so called Black September.
I wish the Palestinians had more circumspect leaders. I wish they were not programing their own children to kill. I wish Mohamed hadn’t laid claim to Jerusalem just to stir the pot. I wish the Palestinians hadn’t decided to breed their way into political contention. Hadn’t rejected all efforts at normalization and murdered any who cooperated.
I also wish the orthodox Jewish community within Israel had far less power. They are aggravating parasites that make everything harder.
Lots of sadness and regrets … very few good answers.
31The tweet poses an interesting question Fred. I think the simple answer is that conservatives feel a cultural affinity to the Israelis that they obviously don’t feel towards the Palestinians or any other Muslim nation. It makes some sense on a cultural level. Many evangelicals hold a religious/faith belief that I lovingly call an “Old Testament” view of Christianity. Ergo, it makes perfect sense that they would feel an affinity towards those direct descendants of that portion of the Bible.
This goes back to my lament a few weeks ago about how 24 hour news dropped the ball in using their time effectively. They could have educated instead of amplifying. People are afraid of what they do not know. Most people are woefully ignorant to the beliefs and traditions of Islam in general and certainly of specific groups from that part of the world. Those seeped in the study of the Bible are very familiar with Judaism. I remember taking a required religion class in college specifically focused on the Old Testament. We learned going backwards and forwards. You can’t help but emotionally be drawn to their side. Their story is our story in part. The other story is one we are less familiar with.
My sense is that we would collectively be much more sympathetic of the Palestinians if we knew their backstory. I’m guessing many of us would connect to it in some way. Those connections are usually what binds us to one side or another even independent of the facts involved. That is certainly how many conservatives operate. They connect to things on an emotional level which is why facts don’t seem to penetrate.
32Dear El Jefe,
Thank you for writing this.
Decades ago, I came to understand the Nakba – the Catastrophe, that the State of Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people. We were not taught in Hebrew school that in 1948 the Israelis destroyed more than 450 villages and exiled more than 750,000 people whose descendants continue to live in refugee camps. For years, I have felt the deepest grief that some people with whom I share a religion have created an apartheid state and have rejoiced in at least 73 years of ethnic cleansing. I don’t use the word “rejoice” lightly. (I grew up in RI in a Conservative Jewish household, complete with Hebrew school, Sunday school, and services in a Zionist milieu. I did a great deal of self-motivated reading regarding the Holocaust and other aspects of Jewish history.) I am 70, so hopefully, my experience was different from yours. What I would often hear were comments like “For every Jew they kill, we will kill 100 Arabs! ” and “Arabs are animals; they have no culture.” The context was that Israel was “A country without a people for a people without a country.”
My grief and distress have been indescribable. I wrote to Congresspeople and became a member of Jewish Voice for Peace and If Not Now. Feeling the need to create something positive and practical, I became an interfaith partner with Canaan Fair Trade, a Palestinian olive oil company; and subsequently founded a non-profit to present Palestinian foods and crafts to our MV community.
Nevertheless, I could not put into words my inner response to the “But what about the Holocaust ?” comments.
I finally know how to answer that question:
THE ONLY WAY I CAN HONOR THE LOSSES OF THE HOLOCAUST – IS TO CRY OUT AGAINST ETHNIC CLEANSING, including the ethnic cleansing being carried out in my name by Israel. I utterly reject the idea that anyone – having suffered genocide in the past – is thereby justified in committing ethnic cleansing in the present.
33El Jefe,
There are times I agree to disagree with you on your take with politics, etc. But this time? I agree with everything you’ve expressed 110%! Thanks for writing this.
34@Art – What you’re demanding of Palestinians, they’ve already done dating back to 1993. If you make the demand of Israel, who’ve NEVER recognized the rights of Palestine to exist, then we might have something to talk about. You’re argument is one sided.
35For a while, I thought this post wasn’t about Texass, then I remembered Mexicans…
36Just viewing this mess from a hight, the Israelis are using the same playbook with the Palestinians that the US used with he native Americans. This should be obvious to all.
37Golda Meir once said that peace would not come until the enemies of Israel love their sons more than they hate Jews. She also said that she could forgive her enemies for killing her sons, but she could never forgive them for turning her sons into killers.
The original partition that created the state of Israel in 1948 was supposed to be a two-state solution – Israel was to be a Jewish state, and Jordan was to be for the Palestinians. The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan did not want the Palestinians to become full citizens (while those who stayed in Israel were granted citizenship there). Instead, Jordan created holding camps for the Palestinians so that when the Arab states who immediately attacked Israel pushed the Jews into the sea, the Palestinians in Jordan could go into what would no longer be Israel and settle there.
The reason the United Nations created Israel is that 6 million Jews were murdered, giving the impression that the only way the Jews could get the world on their side is by dying in great numbers. (The 5 million who also died with them merited the world’s help, too, and I don’t recall the Rom or the homosexuals getting it, but that’s another matter at the moment.)
As someone recently posted, much of the anger of the world at this moment can be construed as regretting that the Arab extremists are not *better* at killing Jews than they are. I have to honestly say that I am one of those who deplore the extremists on both sides. However:
I was part of a discussion online recently about women’s rights to respond to attacks on them, and the advice was to try using as much power as possible. Victimization is a choice, they said. If you can overpower your attacker, use as much force as you can. If he’s down, kick him in the balls. And my response to that was that it’s advice for self-defense that is accorded to every nation in the world except for Israel, which is advised to allow Jews to be hated (and we all know how that worked out in Europe, Ethiopia, Iran, Iraq, etc.) and keep its hands at its sides and its mouth shut. Hating Jews by means of castigating Israel is as popular in a lot of the world as hating POC in the United States by wanting them to stop asking for justice and stop voting.
Some people who say they are not anti-semitic or not racist are saying it because they are about to say something which directly creates the impression that they might be just that very thing. We have to – somehow – learn to care about each other. Everybody. Equally on both sides. And that might be the hardest choice in the world – this world – the only world we’ve got, which we also aren’t caring for, because humanity is selfish.
Personally, I take great comfort in he thought that we’re discovering a lot of different planets right now. Because there’s always a chance that they’re getting things right. We certainly aren’t.
38@30 What is the Right’s obsession with Israel?
An oversimplified answer to this question is that Evangelicals believe that the Third Temple must be built in Jerusalem prior to the Rapture. So their support for Jews is completely selfish and based on religion that is contrary to Jewish belief.
39El Jefe @ #35:
“Palestinians, they’ve already done dating back to 1993.”
Actually, no. The right of Israel to exist was not ratified by the Palestinians permanently or as a whole in 1993. Or any other time. At present no party or government of the Palestinian people have recognized Israel’s right to exist.
In 1993 Mr. Abbas agreed with the assertion but Hamas refused to go along. Subsequently Hamas effectively took over the Palestinian government in a small but bloody fight. The right to exist was one of the reasons Hamas parted ways.
Hamas has steadfastly refused to recognize Israel’s right to exist. As far as they will go seems to be that Israel, in fact, does exists. But this is far short of a legitimate right to exist.
40Why are we selling arms to Israel, again? And why are we giving them monetary “aid” with which to buy those arms? We need to stop NOW. I hope the Egypt-brokered cease-fire will actually happen, and stick this time–but I have doubts. Neither side of the conflict seems able to agree to the other’s right to exist. Until that happens, there can be no lasting peace.
41WTG, El Jefe, timely and right on target.
I first became a political junkie about the age of 4-5, ~1951/2, and heard of this godforsaken bloodsoaked patch of hell-on-earth. The whole I/P problem has been festering ever since [and for a few eons before].
Decades ago I had had enough of hearing of Middle Eastern and so-called ‘Holy Land’ strife, wars and conflicts.
Especially knowing of the talibangelical RW ‘Christian’ fundies who have been bankrolling much of the far-right Israeli provocateurs [EG- Rev John Hagee/CUFI, et al].
I positively hate it that our ‘news’ media devotes an outrageous amount of time ‘covering’ these ‘forever murdering one another’ bastards of all sides. I don’t want nor care to hear or read about them ever again.
My solutions to the problem would be:
42A. Fully arm-to-the-teeth each side of this perpetual conflict and let them destroy each other, ASAP.
B. Nuke the so-called ‘Holy Land’ into oblivion, salt the area with a very ‘dirty’ final nuke that would ensure nobody could set foot there for centuries.
C. Then the rest of the world could get on about whatever the hell it wants without being distracted by this forever ongoing shitshow.
If Israelis are committing “genocide” on the Palestinians, then why are Arabs in Israel (those who call themselves “Arab Israelis” and those who call themselves “Palestinians” both) treated better in Israel than in any of the Arab countries?
If you want to cut off military aid to Israel, then why not cut it off for Iran too? It’s an open secret that any money sent to Iran (such as Obama did) gets spent on sending weapons to the terrorists. Hamas celebrities have said as much.
43@ Leslie – “Like Obama did”. You are aware, are you not, that the money received from the US government in relation to the nuclear arms deal (that Trump stupidly withdrew from) was Iran’s OWN MONEY? It had been frozen in US banks since the 1979 Islamic revolution.
44I said that back in 1993, the Palestinian Authority recognized Israel’s right to exist. That is true. You’re splitting hairs about Hamas while ignoring the truth that Israel has never recognized the right of Palestinians to exist. The history of Israel’s genocide is clear and long term. Making excuses for them is not helpful or solve anything.
45Harry @26:
46I’ve commented here for a few years. A lot of the time most of the folks here agree to one degree or another on the topic at hand. But sometimes not. And sometimes vehemently disagree. And that’s a good thing.
Discussion and all that.
There’s been times when insults were made, including by me. I probably stepped over the line before when I thought someone was trolling, and have been called out for it, and will admit I may have deserved it.
I’ve apologized for some things I’ve said, and seen others do the same.
But unless I’ve missed it, or don’t remember it, I can’t remember once when someone said in here that they expected an apology.
So maybe it’s just me.
And keep in mind this only applies to the comment @26 and no other.
Piss up rope, jack.
Damn. That was supposed to read Piss up a rope, jack.
47Apologies for the lack of proof reading.
Israel is to the Palestinians as Nazi Germany was to Jews.
48