Last Night’s Debate
To be perfectly honest with you, I think the winner of last night’s debate was … Elizabeth Warren. That makes two in a row.
Our friend Deb T has a take on the debates that I can find little to disagree with. I don’t want to get into a name-calling argument here, although El Jefe probably does and that’s fine, but here’s what Deb T thinks and I pretty much agree with.
Stipulating at the top that I’m just an old coot, and my free advice is worth every penny you’re paying for it.
The most delightful thing last night was Marianne Williamson saying that any candidate can come up with plans, which are the superficial way of doing politics, but only she can beat Trump because rather than meat, she has the slogans! She is one box short of becoming the neighborhood crazy cat lady.
Harris stands out for her prosecutor’s ability to press, clearly and with passion, bright-line right vs wrong arguments. She’s also passionate and her camp is prepared. I’d still LOVE to see her on SCOTUS but it’s her life and she would probably make a good President.
Buttigieg stands out for his ability to convey command of complexity, understanding of opposing perspectives, and strong values. He owns his flaws and mistakes and isn’t guilty of letting his ambition get in the way of his day job. People respect that.
Harris and Buttigieg have very different kinds of debating skills, both made very good use of them. But debating skills aren’t everything.
Warren stands out for her ability to articulate actual plans for change and her willingness to be honest about the costs of those plans. She’s the sharpest pencil in the box. She’s also one of the most passionate, this is her life’s work and she has a compelling back story to prove it.
As to Bernie, decrying the failure of politicians to deliver change over the last 40 years sounds less effective when, like Sanders, you’re a 77-year-old politician running against younger politicians. Furthermore, when asked about Medicare for All implementation, Sanders leans more heavily on platitudes than you’d think for someone who’s been running for 5 years. Bernie sees himself as revolutionary. Now don’t get me wrong, revolutionaries have their place but they don’t always make great leaders. They don’t always know how to get things done. He also refuses to back out if he’s not the nominee. He is NOT a Democrat, prediction – the moment he doesn’t get the nomination he’ll tell everyone to get off his lawn!
Missed in the shuffle last night – Maddow reads a quote from Sanders from 2013.
Sanders: “That’s a mischaracterization.”
Maddow: “It’s a quote of yours.”
Biden, to me, he looked completely unprepared. He remains the nice Uncle who brings you groceries and slips you $20 for beer, when you are in college. He’s, like me, an old dog who’s finding it increasingly difficult to learn new tricks. I’m sorry about this, I genuinely like Joe and I’m feeling like this is one of those cases where the family should have told him he’d done a great job, reminded him that he has a great reputation, is beloved by many, has the capacity to become a king maker and then taken away the car keys for the good of all and sundry.
FWIW, “Eric Swalwell asked Joe Biden to pass the torch. Kamala Harris just took it.”
Amy Klobuchar was overshadowed last night. She may not become a front-runner. But…it is worth recommending she is one of the most effective and smartest legislators the Democratic Party has. Klobuchar, like O’Rourke, declined to embrace Castro’s idea to make illegal border crossing a civil, not criminal, violation. I appreciate her smarts and her pragmatism.
Proof that Julian Castro had an impact on night one: The concerns he raised about decriminalizing illegal border crossings on Night One led to a 5-minute conversation about it on Night Two.
Don’t discount Booker. Delaney and Bennet may still have life in them.
Someone needs to explain the GAI math to Andrew Yang.
Final observations:
It’s worth remembering, as we Dems wake up thrilled at prospect of Harris challenging Trump in debates, that Hillary Clinton thrashed Trump in 2016 debates and yet…
Yes Hillary had tons of baggage but any Dem nominee will have baggage by fall of 2020.
Honest question: are people really calling decriminalization of illegal entry “open borders”? Because while admittedly I’m not a lawyer and I don’t play one on TV (nor have I stayed the night at a Holiday Inn), but I always thought there was a difference between civil and criminal violations. I heard most of them say they were endorsing civil penalties rather than criminal ones, which would allow families to stay together and which incidentally would cost taxpayers less. Yet today the tube is full of open borders!
Here’s the thing, as long as we have for profit prisons we will have prisons and we’ll also have draconian laws to fill them. This is a problem that could be solved IF the BS and $$$ we’re taken out of the equation.
Can’t argue with Deb T. But perspective is an interesting thing, so I’ll ‘take on’ the old coot who last year said Senator Kamala Harris was too young to be President. She’s a couple of decades and change older than I am and I’ll old enough to be President next month.
“Mayor” Pete was the surprise to me. He fizzled like Beto did the previous night. Then again, maybe it was all the hype surrounding Pete and I was expecting too much. But his supposed “owning” of the South Bend racism in the cop shop struck me as a whiny white guy making excuses.
Uncle Joe, Brother Bernie, I have yet to prepare that speech for when the time comes to ask my own parents to surrender their car keys, but “stay in your lane” has arrived at get the hell off the road for the two of you.
1. Warren 2. Harris 3. Castro
Cabinet or Senate: Eric Swalwell, Kirsten Gillibrand, Bernie, Cory Booker, Amy Klobuchar, Jay Inslee, Beto
Delete yourself now: Joe Biden, Marianne Williamson, John Hickenlooper, Andrew Yang, Pete Buttigieg, Michael Bennet, Tulsi Gabbard, Bill de Blasio, John Delaney, and Tim Ryan.
Mayor Pete? Maybe Gov of Indiana.
1“Warren stands out… She’s the sharpest pencil in the box.”
I agree. She can also connect the dots and guide them into meaningful imagery.
Warren versus Trump would be the Blackwing 602 (pencil aficionado reference) contesting fingerpaints. Spilled, dripping fingerpaints.
2then mayor Pete may have the credentials to be VP. Would love to see a debate between Pete and Pence. I’d even pay and supply popcorn.
3Dang, Jane & PKM [and JJ of course] more or less got my thoughts on this whole field of candidates. Every one of them better qualified than SOBOTUS for sure.
I favored E Warren going in, had an open mind to the rest, after a few ups and downs I’m settled on Warren.
Have always been leery of Sanders, he speaks and carries a pretty effen good Progressive message, but I have never quite felt comfortable about him, and especially his raving snotty supporters [many of whom, imo, cost Clinton 2016 and brought us Comrade Donnei]. Luvs Biden, but he’s long past his lackadaisical prime [yeah, he’s got a lot of bad baggage us oldtimers remember].
The brilliant Harris goes just a bit too far left for me, into some obviously unworkable stuff, and [imo] the general electorate isn’t quite ready for her. Harris would make a fantastic DoJ Secretary, or even VP [or some other major position in need of her many talents].
Don’t quite think Beto and Castro could win this battle, would luv either in the Dem Cabinet, or even as VP.
The same for most of the rest, they could ably fill a bunch of new Democratic administration positions.
Again, JJ and Jane & PKM pretty well land it.
Now all we have to do is utterly destroy Trump Inc. and as many filthy Republicks as possible in 2020 [y’all know damned well what they’re all eagerly ‘licking’ nowadays…].
4I do not understand why any D is interested in the false falg campaign of buttigieg.
5He started his campaign by trashing D voters for not being “nice” to thuglican trogolytes and imploring them to adjust their policies to accomadate the thuglicans ignorance.
Then he goes on with his cultist appeal to those, who instead of taking personal responsibility, dumps it all off on the great mythical magic man in the sky.
This delusion has a history of endorseing the rule of kings, slavery, segragation, lynchings and genocide. Bsically anything that will get them closer to secular power and justify their scamming and theft from the gullible for gilde alters, fancy vestments and immunity from decency.
As for being Mayotr of South bend well I have been to south bend and one would be hard pressed to find enough enducements for me to live there and as for being mayor the only way would be that they had a lottery for the office and the loser is consigned to it.
Lets not forget his off loading responsibilities of restraining his murder inc, otherwise known of local police, to a member of those gang bangers the police chief.
All I hear from him is that he is a young candinate outside the mainstream who is to scared of running as a thuglican, his natural political home with his beliefs, so decided to grab some free publicity as a D candinate.
So NO on buttigieg.
Have to give him credit for having learned well at the knee of his “spiritual” teachers who taught him the finer points of running a scam.
Bogus and false thuglican meme that bernie cost hillary the election.
6Study after study has shown that it was Oboma to doddering don’s who cost hillary the election.
Greater percentage and numbers deserted the D’s for demented donnie by a country mile.
Which is consistent with history wher the Progressives have stayed true to D candinates and it is the so called “moderates” who desert at a moments notice if they feel their stranglehold on the d’s are under threat. Just as the dixiecrats used their power based upon the threat of deserting the d’s if they were ever crossed, and they did, so it is with the “moderates” who would rather see a Rep. King then a Rep Ilhan or AOC
Continueing this false arguement is just doing thuglicans job for them by trying to divide the d’s based on a lie.
Sorry for tl; dr; after #3, but hey:
EITHER NIGHT, COMPARE TO THE GOPs OF 2016.
I’ll take the results of the best, keep the rest for attacking across the country, and hope there’s enough of the government left when Cheatolini leaves office to do a turn around. I’m still hoping for Abrams/Buttigieg (either as top), but am pleased that there is plenty of possibility as is…
7K, President Carter disagrees with you. He said it was Russia 😉
8Old Fart, who the heck is this “Abrams” that you favor? Haven’t heard of one running. Maybe Stacy? Smart, focused, but going nowhere electively nationally, YKW. Would make a dang good Dem admin appointee though, somewhere she could crack a whip and run roughshod over Rethugs…
And I’m with good ol’ K on Mayor Buttigieg and South Bend. He’s OK on a lot of things, but not ready for prime time, imo.
9I once used to drive through South Bend, it’s the armpit of Indiana, and I always figured Indiana was one of the armpits of the US [ahead of some other states though]. Learned to never stop nor spend money there.
IL wasn’t much better, and from getting a bogus traffic citation, Chicago was corrupt. Had I been smarter/griftier I could have greased a few palms with mordida and skated, as it was they were A-OK with some ‘checkbook justice’ as I paid out officially and went on my way; surrounded by apprehended locals who were in a bind with no scratch to pay them off one way or another.
@lazrgrl #8
10I do not disagree with Pres. Carter but I ws reacting to the false and damageing meme that it wass disillusioned Bernie supporters that deserted the D’s during the general election.
This is a bogus framework pushed by those who embrace the thuglicrat branch of the D party.
I would not be surprised if the lie blaming bernie voters for hillary’s incompetence started in the Kremlin. I do remember during the campaign when this lie first surfaced reading an in depth analysis that showed how this falsehood was started by russians and web pages/ tweets etc. supposedly from the mythical Bernie bro’s were manufactored out of thin air by the tweet factory in leningrad and pushed by bots and other nonexistent, except in digital world, people.
In which case Pres. Carter’s statement would just reinforce my position, and vice versa.
K @6,
I’m not writing so much about D crossovers [and I’ve read of your ‘Obama-to-Trump voter’ theory as being totally discredited], but of the many BernieBros [and others] who just stayed home instead of voting for Hillary [from the consensus at Daily Kos there were a lot of ’em]. Snotnosed ‘purists’ who would rather a Thug win than dirty their widdle paws with a less-than perfect candidate.
I don’t care if it’s a ham sandwich or a hamster, as long as they are a “D” and are reasonably honest.
And BTW, in ~five+ decades I’ve voted for very few R’s. Only one I remember is a local JP who I personally knew to be a decent, honest guy; this was before even 43, I think I voted for him in 2016, although I hadn’t for a while [may have had no opposing D].
11A lot of my co-workers went over to the dark side with Ronny Raygun [maybe even with G Ford, iirc], many of the fools paid for it later.
While I originally planned to remain neutral during the primaries, I wound up throwing a couple of bucks at Warren once she stated that she would not be holding Big Donor fund-raisers or taking PAC money. Of course, I hear from her campaign every. single. day. looking for more. I’m considering it.
On the other hand, there is Harris. I find her intriguing. Castro, too; but, he seems awfully young, although not as young as Mayor Pete and with boatloads more experience. At the very least, Castro was mayor of a much larger and more important city. Beto hasn’t articulated a reason for why he is running. I wish he would’ve taken on Cornyn.
Biden is looking and sounding awfully old these days. Shockingly old, to me at least. Same with Bernie.
12Warren-Harris this election, then re-examine in 2024. Maybe Harris will be more viable then.
13Quick question: are most folks of a mind to support whomever the eventual candidate is for the D’s, regardless of whom that person is? There seems to be a concentrated effort to start the Twitter/FB/Insta etc. attack machine going already, case in point Drudge is pushing the “Tulsi won the debate and our hearts” narrative (in fairness she gave Ryan quite a spanking).
PKM, Harris is young comparatively but that is not disqualifying she’s also smart and she has experience. Her standing should shoot up after last nights performance and more power to her. Full disclosure she’s one of several candidates we’ve sent a little money to because my Bubba and I think they and their ideas are interesting and we want to hear more.
As of yet I don’t have a horse in this race, so I’m just spitballing regarding their performances based on my observations and listening to folks on social media and the local coffee shop. If I’m leaning any way it’s towards Warren, she was my preferred candidate in 2016 – don’t @ me, she’s just always impressed me. I’m still in the wait and see zone this year because, the number one thing I’m looking for is someone who can, as Old Fart says beat Chetolini!
K is right, Bernie didn’t cost Hillary the election. Russia and our outmoded Electoral College System once again allowed Republicans to control the country without winning the popular vote. While we are on the subject, Comey didn’t help!
Something I didn’t say and probably should have: what’s sad about the plethora of genuinely good candidates (I’d gleefully take any of them over Trump!), is that had they not chosen to mount a loosing campaign for President they could have instead mounted a potentially winning campaign for the Senate or the House and we need both those chambers to undo the damage caused by the Cheeto in Chief.
14O/T But sure to send IQ4.5 into a twitter rage. The US women’s soccer team defeated France 2-1 in the semifinals of the Women’s World Cup. The two US goals were scored by Megan Rapinoe who has penetrated Donnie’s thin skin by pre-declining any invitation to visit the WH.
It’s disappointing that we won’t see the net results of Donnie trying to grab Ms. Rapinoe or one of her teammates. A corner kick into the Rose Garden …
15@Sandridge #11
16Funny every article I have read has placed the Obama to demented donnie percentage as betweeen 9% and 15% mostly in the industrial midwest.
(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama-Trump_voters)
So I know not of any source except perhaps breitbart or russia today who have shown that the mythical bernie bro’s exceeded 1 in 12 ( approx 8%)
What bothers me about this myth is that it plays into the projection of the so called “moderate” d’s who are always looking for an excuse to vote for a thuglican while blaming it all on the progressives.
This is a damaging and false projection.
Jane/PKM
Adam Serwer via the Twitter Machine:
17“If Rapinoe gets a hat trick she replaces Trump as president. Look I don’t like it either but it’s in the Constitution and we should trust in the framer’s wisdom.”
@ Deb #17
18Yes Yes and even more yes.
@Sandridge #9 Stacy Abrams & Pete Buttigieg would be correct.
Strictly personal favorites, because I’d like to hear what they have to say and I believe they would mean it. I will admit a bias to keeping my Sen. Warren, but those 2 were the ones I found most interesting in the latest electoral cycle.
P.S. I am a nerd, and am attracted to bright shiny intellects.
Check out the “Why Is This Happening” Podcast where Chris Hayes is live with Ms. Abrams: https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/discussing-democratic-response-stacey-abrams-podcast-transcript-ncna976151
19Speaking of debate fallout, there’s this from HuffPost
Joe Biden Loses Support From Top Donor After Segregationist, Hyde Amendment Comments: Report
Tom McInerney also told CNBC he didn’t think the former vice president had performed well in this week’s Democratic primary debate.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-biden-loses-support-from-top-donor-after-segregationist-hyde-comments_n_5d164936e4b082e55368b188?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaHVmZnBvc3QuY29tLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJGaZCtxfP8GoFDnkQl9z0nRPJgjmICOy_OwjXXsTh-6NWz8zH09dTbGYJrp43j_IyXsKbBnMSnI6u8mal8qGjL-XuOfzpcX2q2eBW_JMdQtqrPX2ENJYjoVMdv_A1bpn1J2EgfUYGkxOa0kA-sP2g6NBNWJ6g7mIhihIjIxel68
20Well ferdamnsure, we need to hear more from Deb T.
21I’ve had an eye on Kamala Harris since hearing her in Charlotte 2012. I like her style, and I feel like she has a natural way to connect with people. Resume not as great as HRC’s but as good or better than any of the others. She is doing the leg work on the ground in multiple states, and I think it will pay off to many people’s surprise once the primaries start. I do like EW. Very much. She’s smart, she’s got plans (which doesn’t mean squat as we saw in 2016), but damn, there’s something about her presentation that rubs me wrong (and I’m from MA where all my friends love or hate her). I feel like she’ll be the legacy Teddy K, workhorse of the Senate. But if she is the one who makes it through, I’m all in. Bernie can go home. I love Uncle Joe, but third time is not the charm. I think Julian Castro did really well. He doesn’t get the attention he deserves. When the mayor of tiny (relative to San Antonio) South Bend Indiana gets all the hype with the msm, it gives me pause. Still eating my popcorn and watching what happens. It’s early yet. But seriously, there are a lot of people who should be packing up soon and going home (do you hear me Marianne?). There are a few who should drop and run for Senate, because if we don’t have the Senate, ain’t nothing gonna get done. My two cents at the moment. Stay tuned for adjustments!
22@fenway fran # 22
23Odd though I like both Warren and Harris I find Warren to be very good at presenting and explaining issues. I will grant you that she does have a bit of that professor vibe. A style I beleive would put the demented one on his back foot in any debates.
On the other hand I also like Harris but I find her style of presentation a bit off putting. That coupled with her prosecutor style (which sorta rubs me wrong) which I beleive would be something that the syphilitic don is probably more used to as it could come off as “bluster” to some, not me, and that is something that the demented one is a master of.
As I have stated before my ideal ticket would be Warren/Harris and look to Harris down the road ( if there is a down the road)
That coupled with her continued support from wells fargo gives me pause for her on the top spot this time around.
I agree with your other comments.
Just funny how the reaction to the same people can differ but as the old saying goes that’s what makes a horse race.
Of all the candidates with governing experience, Bernie Sanders has the best record, which is pretty impressive when you consider that he has never been a member of either of the major parties.
That circumstance has trained him to negotiate mainstream politics in order to achieve the goals he has pursued. In addition, he, as was shown by his support of Clinton after the DNC sandbagged him in 2016, puts ends above ego. He could have pulled a Ralph Nader or George Wallace act, but set aside his personal preferences to support the better of the two candidates.
I think that he and Elizabeth Warren would make an ideal team. Both have the young ideas, and it’s likely either of them would be willing to be the vp serving the other’s goals.
24In Marianne Williamson’s defense, Trump won using exactly the same tactic. So, if we want a Trump of our very own, SHE’S THE ONE!
That said, I like policies. Can’t get enough of ’em.
25So my ranks are: 1] Warren 2] Harris 3] Castro? Still checking him out but so far . . . .
[I should have credited Deb T too @4]
twocrows @25, I sort of liked Castro [and his twin brother, observing them from not too far away in S TX]. But he’s recently publicly gone off the deep end on illegal immigration issues [and others, not so much on the ‘asylum’ ones], for me anyway. Nationally and in Texas he’d get slaughtered.
26Please, Dog, not Klobuchar! As a 30+ year inmate of Corporate America, I just can’t get behind someone who mistreats employees.
27