Geeezzzz … Even God Asked Mary for Permission
Ya know, when I heard about Indiana Republican senate nominee Richard Mourdock say that pregnancy from rape is “God’s will,” my level of incredulous rose so high that it stopped things – evil things – from happening in my brain. That’s God’s will to keep my sweet butt out of prison for going all Lorena Bobbitt on Indiana Republican senate nominees.
But that incredulous also kept a scripture out of my head until I was reminded of it this morning by someone gifted with a clear mind.
Luke 1:26-38 says that God Hisownself sent the Angel Gabriel to ask Mary’s permission prior to impregnating her with the Son of God. The scripture says that Mary answered Gabriel, “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.”
If even God has to ask permission, do you think for one minute that it’s God’s will for mere mortals not to? And contrary to what they believe, Republican men are, for the most part, mere mortals. The ones that aren’t just mere mortals are first degree jerks. True, there are far more of them in the second category.
Republicans are facing forty miles of rough road if they think women are going to give them clubs and willingly go back to the cave.
Can I get an Amen?
And thanks to customer Laura for this great YouTube.
Waiting for the first DA to charge God as an accessory.
1We’ll call it the Murdoch Defense. “God intended my client to rape that woman. It is unreasonable to expect him to do otherwise. We ask that the charges be dismissed.”
2Amen!!!!!!
3All these Rescumlicans who say wacky things about women, rape and pregnancy are married. I like to think I am a sensible guy. Why are they married yet I am still single?
4Oh, yes, the family values group. Rape em, impregnate em and then blame God.
5JJ, I’ve read a couple of versions of that passage and I’m having trouble sussing out the “ask” part. It might be a translation issue, or me needing to read more of the footnotes, but honestly, I’m getting a sense of “hey, I’m announcing that this is happening” and Mary telling the angel she’ll go along with it.
[WARNING–strong talk about surviving rape–may not be suitable for all readers at all times]
But as a survivor, I can assure you that “going along with it” is not the same as “consenting.” If you’re in a position where the other guy’s bigger, stronger, more valued in society, and has already played the game so that nobody will believe you when you say he did something to you against your will, the safe thing to do is to not put up a fight. Don’t put up a fight and you might not get hurt too badly. Put up a fight and you’re likely to get it worse.
Either way, Murdoch is a word that your mama would scrub my mouth out with soap for using here.
6Amen!!
7I was talking to a male friend yesterday and this subject came up and his solution was you just castrate a rapist and then he can’t do it again. Then again he doesn’t believe that men or the government should have any say in a woman’s health. I do hang out with a better class of males 🙂 I think they are all dems.
8Some say that we atheists have no ethics because we have no God. I say that lacking the protection of God makes us more ethical. We can’t use the excuse of “God’s will” to wash away our sins, and we can’t escape our own guilt by blaming God.
To the Republicans, religion is like a convenience store. They rush in, get their Twinkies and a 32 oz. Slurpee, and rush out. Then they brag about how good the sugar rush makes them feel and accept the resulting unfortunate consequences as God’s will.
Another old song lyric with a veiled reference to Republican justice:
“After all the trial and fury
9They spared the judge but hanged the jury.
No one asked the reason why
Sentence passed, they turned to die.”
–Robt. Hunter, Tales of the Great Rum Runners
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GswPO2eX_VI
JJ, these are taliban. they’re aren’t intereted in either facts or bible verses.
10ralph, GREAT post!!!
11hear hear, gidget! but of course, you know you’re getting into “legitimate” territory. in the end, taliban will do and say what they want. remember george bush? god talks to them all. that’s why they are so dangerous.
12freethought…maybe marriage isn’t all it’s cracked up to be? i’ve never married and i’m happy as a clam at high tide.
13@Everydy Freethought I’m betting their wives are just as ignorant and wacked as their husbands. You’re a sensible guy so your standards are higher.
14Oh Ralph, a new Twinkie Defense! As the kids say, AWESOME!
Might I respectfully add that as an atheist one is forced to behave ethically because one can not fall back on the time honored, holier than thou, “I am forgiven!” defense? As a card carrying Episcopalian (aka known as the sheep who have strayed from the flock), I don’t use that defense or the other ones you mentioned but then again, I am also a card carrying Democrat and that tends to cancel the hypocrisy out a bit.
Gidget, and JJ, AMEN sisters.
15Excellent Ralph! Can I use that? Oh and guess who made an ad endorsing this twit and is back peddling now for all he’s worth. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/23/richard-mourdock-abortion_n_2007482.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false
16Deb, Thanks for the edit. I intended to say that, but I was insufficiently eloquent. And I have no one to blame but myself.
17Right, that whole God’s will and God’s plan notion is pretty darn slippery. Old John Hagee (like the late Jerry Falwell) often says that the nation of Israel is a necessary part of God’s plan. Now. Stop. Think about all the events that led up to the formation of the nation of Israel. Don’t forget the Holocaust or the pogroms because all of them are part of Gods’ plan.
Those people are beneath contempt and right down there with slime molds on the intelligence scale — my apology to the slime molds who took offense.
18Once again John Cornyn displayed the kind of stupidity we expect from Texas Gop leaders:
But while Romney distanced himself Tuesday, by Wednesday morning, National Republican Senatorial Committee Chairman John Cornyn (R-Texas) gave Mourdock a vote of support.
“Richard and I, along with millions of Americans – including even Joe Donnelly – believe that life is a gift from God,” Cornyn said. “To try and construe his words as anything other than a restatement of that belief is irresponsible and ridiculous.”
19gidget, I was always taught that God asked; it goes along w the whole free-will thing. You don’t have to take him, he doesn’t force anyone. (The only person I can think of who got forced to do anything was Jonah, and he was forced to keep his word-again, that’s what I was taught.)
Republicans don’t like free will; you may have noticed, they really LIKE a show of force when THEY hold the whip hand. This may not be quite a politic thing to say, and you may all call me out if you like and we’ll discuss it, but after the last 90 days, I have come to the conclusion that republicans don’t believe in rape, except when race is involved. I seriously assert that most of them, men and women, believe that a white man cannot be guilty of raping a white woman. Doesn’t happen. So the real crime in all OTHER cases is being black or Hispanic or foreign or NOT WHITE. The whole rape thing is not so important to them, because rape is a crime of POWER and subjugation, and a great many Rethugs like those things. Feel free to castigate me on any and all points offered here, I can be taught – if your argument is good enough!
20Norma, the problem with your friend’s solution is that there are still broomsticks and beer bottles; the body itself is only a weapon, for reasons given above. On the other hand it would certainly cut domn on the pregnancies!
Ralph, my husband agrees with you all the way! He says religion is a crutch and unnecessary. I say I’m a cripple then, and if it helps ME behave better then it’s doing its job, but I cannot speak for anyone else (nor do I want to!!)
Geewhiz and golly whoppers! Cornyn the Barbarian done up and described himself…”irresponsible and ridiculous”.
21Dear Norma, who wants to bet that when some fundie screams bloody murder old Willard Wavin in the Wind will be right back again?! FAUGH! It’s enough to make you lose your religion, I swear!
22Liz, I’m not really comfortable with the “cripple” notion. I see religion as a different approach to a universal problem. And I try to remember that there are more good theists than bad theists, even in Texas.
Another common meme in the atheist community goes like this
Religion is like a penis.
It’s OK to have a penis.
It’s OK to use a penis respectfully, knowledgeably, and wisely.
It is not OK to take it out in public and play with it.
It is not OK to shove it down the throats of those who don’t want it.
So I don’t see you as a cripple. I see you as a person who has found a different answer and you are using it respectfully, knowledgeably, and wisely.
23Aggieland liz, I understand that’s the common teaching, and that’s cool, but I’m having trouble drawing it from the text. Maybe there’s more text that connects those dots?
What I’m NOT cool with–and if you’re hanging out here at the salon, it’s a darn good bet you aren’t either–is the idea that any of that is used to hold up the notion that a woman doesn’t really have a viable right to say “no.” It’s not merely a theoretical–in many circumstances, a woman saying “no” could get her hurt a lot worse than if she just concedes. Does a mere woman have a right to say no to a man and not pay a horrific price? To an archangel? To God? I can totally believe and support the teaching you received and still be nervous that some clown like Murdoch would use that to force a woman to accept her fate.
@Ralph, the penis-religion thing? One of my favorite analogies.
24Ralph, I think others will agree with me when I say, I have never known you to be anything short of eloquent.
I would add Todd Akin, Richard Mourdock, Mike Kelly, Joe Walsh, Frank Szabo are not outliers any more than Marco Rubio, Jan Brewer, Rick Santorum (who won MO’s non binding primary) and Paul Ryan are. Last October, when Mississippi activists and congressional Republicans pushed legislation on the state and federal level, respectively, that would have treated zygotes—a.k.a. fertilized human eggs—as legal “persons.” If the definition of legal personhood is changed so that it begins when sperm meets an egg, hormonal birth control or barrier devices that prevent zygotes from implanting in the uterine wall could become illegal, making using an IUD tantamount to murder. Yet some 40 percent of House Republicans and a quarter of their allies in the Senate back bills that would do just that.
These are people who have never, ever approved of birth control, and they see an opportunity to take it one step further. Speaker of the House John Boehner (R-Ohio), warned that he will pass legislation that would allow employers to refuse to provide birth control to their employees. Boehner’s Senate counterpart, Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), noted that several Republican senators have already introduced bills on the subject. One of those bills is Rubio’s
I am going to respectfully ask the following questions. Do you believe a woman should have access to contraceptives if she wishes to do so? Do you believe that a rape victim should have access to a morning after pill that would prevent conception from taking place? Do you think the government has the right to tell a woman what she can or can not do with her body even it the governments demands go against the advice of her doctor? If you answered yes to the first two questions and no to the last one your decisions about who to vote for have just become clear.
What I have just described is a fundamental part of the Republican Platform and it is a driving force in today’s Republican Party. If there is a Republican majority in the Senate (as there already is in the House) and a Republican President here is what happens next. Not one but two Supreme Court Justices get appointed and we revisit Griswold v Connecticut http://www.oyez.org/cases/1960-1969/1964/1964_496
Forget abortion, we are talking contraception, we are talking about the rights of rape victims, we are discussing basics. I don’t know about you but I do not want to leave my granddaughters a Todd Akin world.
Sometimes, not to decide, is to decide. Sometimes, not saying anything provides tacit consent. Sometimes, not pulling a lever for anyone, amounts to electing someone else. Leslie Gore is right, “Our silence in this election, is consent and our vote is our only voice.” Please, exercise your voice, vote in November the stakes are too high not to do so. It is imperative to send a message not just to the Todd Akins of this world but to the people who have given him a platform and who have supported his legislation and that includes Paul Ryan his frequent co-sponser.
25I have fire ant hills out in the pasture. I volunteer my ant hills to be used for the re-education of anyone who thinks a child of rape is really a gift from God the woman should be grateful for.
We have two obvious candidates and one of them lives in Texas.
But in the spirit of Christian charity and forebearance, I’ll let God judge and punish them. I have already suggested to the Almighty, however, that it would do such men good to be reborn as female, poor, brown-or-darker-skinned, while being left their memories of what they said about women, poor people, people of color, and God’s will.
26You can bet all you own and a lot more that if this man’s (I use the term man loosely) daughter or granddaughter were raped by one of “those colors” that the Rs consider good only for servants there would be a quiet trip to a good doctor friend to make sure there were no “consequences.”
I completely, utterly, unequivocably (yes, spellcheck, this really is a word), and without question detest these holy hypocrites.
2731 states give the RAPIST visitation rights to the child they fathered by rape.
So not only do you have to deal with being raped, you may need to see your rapist for the next 18-21 years.
You also need to share your ‘gift from God’ with a rapist.
Why are we even talking about this? Why are women ‘giving’ their rights away without protest?
28Everydy Freethought – and rest,
I recently attended a class on Religion and Psychology, some fascinating stuff.
The last night we focused on Violence in Religion and it all hedged around the Fundamentalist extremes of ALL religions.
According to the prof. All religions have extremists (fundamental ones) and they all are Patriarchal-focused. So we discussed why women would even be attracted to these “only OUR interpretation and rules are truly right and serving God” groups that so treat women dismissively (from our perspective). She explained that what the group offers women is security, like a husband selected for you, and freedom from your past (your wrongness and shame of that past).
Another interesting point is that a study for percent of American Adults that can and practice advanced thought form (thinking abstract concepts/outside the box; practicing formal logical thought; allowing cognitive dissonance to exist) – 30%. The other 70% prefer not to be mentally challenged – so they may be attracted to an authority figure or sacred text that makes the world simpler for them in their decisions.
So Everydy Freethought, do not question the women that marry these idjet men and choose a life of submissive thoughts. Pity them. They settled for security, for being their own brand of Stepford Wives. I assume you would at least prefer a partner you can enjoy a good conversation – maybe even a debate – with.
29My former pastor had a GREAT saying. “God is not a cosmic puppeteer”
30Amen, Juanita Jean, and Amen to all the other very good comments.
31So maybe we should lighten it up a bit.
Suppose the fetus is declared a person and the very next day a pregnant woman goes to Landlord-tenant Court to demand eviction of the squatter in her uterus.
“He never pays rent and he won’t move out. I want the law to protect my rights as a landlord” she says. “At least let me turn off the utilities so he will have to go.”
So the poor judge has to rule that the uterus is not her property or else the state would be required to remove the squatter. And serving an eviction notice would be tricky. You don’t want to nail it to the front door as is customary.
If you don’t like that argument, try the 13th Amendment to the Constitution that prohibits involuntary servitude. How will a judge rule when a woman demands to be emancipated from the Simon Legree living in her belly, forcing her to provide food and shelter without consent or compensation?
If that little bean shaped thing is a person, he should be a Republican and stand on his own two quasi-feet without asking for help from the taxpayers! Where is that sense of personal responsibility that is so highly prized by the far right? Have we no work houses?
32Here’s another one for you: it is becoming increasingly evident that being prone to commit violent acts is a heritable characteristic. Not 100% but some %. So to salve MY conscience, do I keep a child i did not want, with a man i do not know, who may well have inherited violent tendencies? Do I have the right to foist this misbegotten human on an unsuspecting society? There are no easy answers and “GOD’s WILL” is about the biggest damn copout ever. It’s right up there with being “saved” which for some reason means you get to do whatever you want, it’s all good!!
33Star, years ago I read a book called “Women’s Ways of Knowing.” It went a long way toward explaining why women stay with abusers and persist in the kind of thinking that many of us perceive as personally destructive. The way out of that is education, but not totally, because a person can be intelligent and capable of learning in a classroom, for instance, but still not understand how they are – backward? self-destructive? whichever term might fit in a given situation. What they learn – or retain – is highly dependent on the stage of “knowing” they inhabit.
341. Silence: total dependence on whims of external authority
2. Received Knowledge: receive and reproduce knowledge
3. Subjective Knowledge: truth and knowledge are conceived of as personal, private, and intuited
4. Procedural Knowledge: rely on objective procedures for obtaining and communicating knowledge
5. Constructed Knowledge: view all knowledge as contextual; value subjective and objective strategies
This whole discussion gives me hope that there is a chance at a better future. If we end up under the thumb of the Republicans, I think that will be the beginning of the end for them. I can foresee a vigorous uprising that will make 2010 seem like a stroll in the park.
Keep it up, JJ fans, and keep the faith, in whatever form that may be for you personally.
And…GoBama!!
Diane, when I told a neighbor recently about those 31 states that equate a rapist with a loving, supportive father she couldn’t believe it. I think that is how most folks react. Its the 21st century and crap still happens. Would like to have the list of names of the states that still force such suffering on folks.
35Ralph, you are so much fun! Simon Legree indeed! 😀 my response about the crutch and cripple thing was in response to a direct attack by my loving spouse who was trying to point out the error of my ways! He is very helpful, and thinks I would be much better off w/o a church! So you don’t have to be comfortable with it; I much prefer agreeing to disagree on some things, it’s easier. For instance, I have always looked clean awful in burnt orange, but it doesn’t mean everybody does (although I assert that sometimes, for fun)!! ;D
36I think your faith and/or beliefs – however you plug-in to infinity, and root yourself in humanity, is your own damn business.
But religion? That’s just plain business. It’s about power and so, of course, is about politics. It’s about enforcing something on someone, hopefully through non-violent coercion but, coereced or otherwise, it’s an aggressive act.
Assuming the existence of an omnipotent deity, just ask yourself: how far beyond the realm of human understanding must this deity be, who exists out of time, out of space and out of all natural law? Even our very words cannot begin to describe it, much less our consciousness understand its motivations and wishes.
But I notice that doesn’t stop the uber-religious person from worshipping a god who shares exactly the same petty prejudices, the same draconian punishments, the same narrowness of vision and the same sadistic glee towards “sinners” as the person.
How can you NOT worship a being who is, essentially, yourself? How satisfying that must be! Sundays around the meeting house aren’t God-worship, but rather a holier-than-thou circle jerk.
I think maybe the Wicccans have it best: An’ ye harm none, do what ye will.
37Oh, Ralph, darlin’, that was just WONDERFUL! You are a gem, honey.
38Amen, again and again!
39I say this as a lifelong – but now former – Republican. Truly, the lunatics like Mourdock and his kind have taken over the asylum. Over the longer term, our two-party system is in jeopardy, demolished from within by members of the extremist fringe who call themselves Republicans but pursue an agenda entirely separate from their party’s ideals of respect for individual rights, freedom and fiscal conservatism. Their behavior is Orwellian doublespeak – lip service to controlling deficits while charging two wars to our nation’s credit card. A tip of the hat to the middle class while shifting the accumulation of wealth to the few super-rich and the great majority loses assets, jobs and financial security. When Republicans go back to being true Republicans and stop trying to be spiritual authoritarians and freedom-robbers of the rest of us, there again will be hope for two parties that can air legitimate differences while finding common ground on matters that advance and improve the security of our nation and its people.
40Liz, the cripple thing was just sucking up as a prelude to my asking you to leave your husband and run away with me. I guess I need a better strategy.
Or perhaps there is someone else out there looking for a rich, handsome, young man disguised as a fat old bald guy. Ladies?
41Okay, let me get this straight, a child conceived through rape is God’s will and the pregnant woman needs to accept it. But, a child that will destroy the mother’s health or kill her isn’t? How do they keep their heads from spinning around? Oh wait, that is the devil. Never mind.
42Yes chip, I think it’s all the forcing and enforcing that is the problem. The religious lunatics want to turn the “land of the free and the home of the brave” into “the land of believers and home of the saved” and I’m afraid of what will happen to the rest of us, cuz religious or no, I am not what they consider a believer! So um, I’m not saved, and therefore I don’t count.
And I really can’t believe that it’s 2012 and we are fighting this stupid fight ALL. OVER. AGAIN! I feel like old Father William, standing on my head! Geez!
43Liz, in my heart you are young and lovely, but have taken literary license to present the following. I apologize in advance for saying anything offensive:
You are old, Aggie Liz, the Republican said,
And your hair is exceedingly white.
Do you think it quite proper to be using your head
Which would make you more Leftward than Right?
In my youth I assumed, said Aggieland Liz,
That everyone uses their brain.
But now I know what o’clock it is:
Only halfwits support King of Bain!
You are old, Liz of Aggie, and less than robust
A drain on society’s till
With free cash and doctors. That hardly is just.
Pray, how can you treat us so ill?
In the flower of my youth, Liz said, I was younger,
And paid in though I was not wealthy.
And now I take back so as not to know hunger
And in order to keep myself healthy.
You are old, Aggie Liz, the Rightie averred
And far past the age of conception.
With nary a bee and nary a bird
Why pay for others’ contraception?
At this Liz rose up in wrath, and replied,
44I’ve still got my brains and my beauty.
I’ve answered your questions, no matter how snide,
Now begone, ere I kick your patootie!
I applaud you DaChipster … and I hope Liz smiled, maybe even laughed out loud, at your poem lauds the woman she is!!
Bravo!!!
45DaChipster, you are brilliant!
46Why can’t something as awful as pregnancy from a rape be seen the work of the devil?
47Fundamentalist Christians certainly acknowledge the existence of evil; Jesus himself was tempted by Satan.
In fact, every human civilization that made it out of the cave–and a few that didn’t–has constructed a belief system that includes a power for good and an equal power for evil.
So why put the responsibility for everything, good or bad, on shoulders of the good guy?
(DaChipster, I am totally with you regarding wiccan.)
DaChipster, it’s already been a less than fun week for me, but you and JJ’s other clients always make it better! You’re all just too brilliant for words.
48Ralph, there’s one more line to that:
Religion is like a penis.
It’s OK to have a penis.
It’s OK to use a penis respectfully, knowledgeably, and wisely.
It is not OK to take it out in public and play with it.
It is not OK to shove it down the throats of those who don’t want it.
AND
It is not OK to tell me that I am less worthy and important and less of an American than you because you have one and I don’t.
calrocat, have to disagree with you on every civilization having a good and evil power. In fact, Wiccans don’t, as far as I know– at least the Pagans I’ve met don’t. They point out that they are not “Satanists” because they don’t believe in Satan; Christians do.
Can someone get across to these ignorant GOP men that they should shut up about things like rape and contraception that they know nothing about? (I’m sure they all think contraception has nothing to do with them personally.) On the other hand, if they keep showing off what scumbags they are and losing votes, I guess I can put up with it for another two weeks.
49Amen.
50