Experts are Urging Clinton to Challenge Results in Swing States
Computer security experts at the University of Michigan have found compelling evidence that election results in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania have been altered or hacked, and have urged the campaign to challenge the election results in those states. In Wisconsin counties alone, where electronic voting machines were used versus paper ballots, Hillary underperformed by 7%. That 7% would swing Wisconsin to Hillary’s column. That unusual pattern caught computer experts’ attention, which indicates hacking of results. The experts have had a conference call with John Pedestal, but nothing has come out of the campaign yet. Apparently the White House doesn’t want Hillary to challenge, feating upheaval that they don’t want.
Waiting for the other shoe to drop.
As one of the few counties in Pennsyltucky which uses the optical scan of physical ballots system (for the past 10 years or so thanks to courageous Democratic County Commissioners) I found this to be very interesting.
http://www.billjamesonline.com/fixing_a_presidential_election/
Also, while the purchase of the optical scan system was the point of contention by the Republican opposition, the deciding point was that the annual maintenance cost for the optical scan system is far less than for the DRE system.
1We need to quit being immobilized by fear of what the right might do if upset, and get ready to deal with what they’re going to do if we stay scared. This is not going to end well. There will be violence. There will be backlash violence. Some of these people have been eager for another Civil War for years (I’ve heard it from some mouths myself, and it’s been obvious through all the campaign, starting before Trump announced.) Idiots who’ve never been to war think their personal weapons stashes and playtime at the gun ranges make them heroes…they are dangerous, domestic terrorists, but letting them cow us makes them even more dangerous.
Whether Clinton challenges or not, I do not see any real peace in this country for years to come, now that the mad dogs are out. The racists, sexists, gender-bashers, xenophobes do not want peace. They make that clear with their mocking, sneering, arrogant posts on Twitter and Facebook, and their Leader’s behavior as president-elect, as well as the multiple abuses they’ve already perpetrated to frighten and control those around them. They want their New Order in which they, the white males and their submissive mates, rule without dissent, and they are willing to kill to get it.
Which brings up–what are we willing to do to deny them their desire? Just being nice won’t do it. Just being patient won’t do it. Ask African-Americans, ask Mexican Americans, ask Native Americans. When Nazis are in power–and these are effectively Nazis, some of them admittedly so–they pay no attention to what anyone else wants or thinks. They have already frightened the major media, which keeps making placating noises and finding excuses. (E.g. Writer for the NYT talking about the “confusing” push-pull Trump is using in his speeches now–as if that weren’t obviously the abusive manipulation of a practiced abuser.)
If those who opposed Trump let themselves be immobilized by fear of what Trump’s supporters will do, then resistance to a steady diet of surveillance, propaganda, bias in the justice system, and attacks on all dissent will make it that much harder to gain back any of the ground the neo-Nazis are eager to take from us. A fighting retreat may be necessary until we are organized for what’s coming, but should be on the basis of “can’t win this battle now, wait until we can” with solid preparation for its inevitability.
Since we know the GOP’s tactics for the past 20 years have emphasized reducing the influence of minority voters, old people, and independent women–and since we know that Russia had an interest in the election and the hacking skills to involve itself–and since the incidents of voter fraud, such as voting more than once, have been largely if not exclusively Republican, it could make sense to challenge the validity of the election…and if the neo-Nazi faction goes [redacted] crazy, it would be while Obama is still Commander in Chief. It could also make sense, IF the left and center had a plan, to hold off while strengthening their position across the country, not just in elected office but in the ability to mount a real resistance to neo-Nazi violence.
This is not going away. The number of rats already out of the oat hay, and their attitude, shows that the Old South KKK types and the Nazi “master race” types are a sufficiently large number that either the war they’ve been so eager for happens, or the rest of us become slaves. And by the way–the African Americans are not going to go quietly. Nor am I.
2@Elizabeth Moon
In general, I agree with your post.
A percentage of conservatives want to eradicate non-conservative thought and disagreement with their brand of conservatism that they would resort to violence. They will find that a percentage of liberals are armed as well. Unfortunately both sides will discover that once the veneer of civilization is dissolved the acts of violence are easy. Each act makes the next act easier. The destruction of lives, directly and collaterally, will increase as well. At some point this risks soft political folks become involved because they lost a family member or friend who was more political and engaged in political violence. And the escalation increases.
The 2016 weapons technology is far far greater than 1860. As civilized Americans we do no want a free-fire us v. them Hatfields v McCoys political driven feud.
3If Clinton doesn’t challenge this election, we won’t have another. Do you think these Nazis are going to let us vote them out?
4Well . . . the race is on. Will the Trumpers who finally realize that they have been had by a rapacious con man get their arms and rise up before the KKK et al. do the same thing? The KKK and their ilk are probably this morning foaming at the mouth with the appointment of Niki Haley, she of Indian – as in sub continental extraction – has been appointed Trump’s United Nations ambassador. See how he timed that? Right after he disavowed the white supremacists who met the other day in D.C., complete with Nazi salutes. Of course, now that he did the disavowal thing, i am waiting for him to dump Bannon or at least Bannon taking his own self out of the mix. And, no, I am not going to be quiet about the fact the Trump will continue to do things indefensible and convoluted while seeming once in a while to do the right thing and calling himself a hero. That won’t work at all for anybody. And I’m wearing my large safety pin in public. If you find yourself in danger from racists et al it is way OK for me to come stand by you or vice versa. The Sixties were good for me. I know the value of an “observer”.
5The value of an observer standing with the oppressed cannot be underestimated. I was with a peace group in Nicaragua during the Contra (Reagan) war, and wherever we were the violence against the Nicaraguan people stopped. They begged us not to leave because they knew they wouldn’t be attacked while there were U.S. witnesses to what was going on. Witness for Peace had a permanent presence there all through those years.
6To BLOTUS and all his surrogates – do not forget that you do not have a mandate. You did not win the popular vote. Your Electoral College margin is questionable, if not stolen. No mandate to rule.
7PKM, they are going to give that even less thought than Dubya and Cheney did, so we’re into large negative numbers.
I’d love to see this electoral college result be reversed, as I think it should be, and if there’s been hacking– even more than the voter suppression we knew about– it should be exposed and punished severely. Is it going to happen? Probably after I flap my arms and fly to the moon.
What would happen if it were? We’d have a president who would never be accepted by about half the country, some of them armed and insane; a Congress even more determined to block and deny everything she tried to do, even if she promoted a bill saying that kittens are cute; and a GOP on fire to take her down and grind the Dems in the dirt. Would that be better than four years of Trump and Pence? Quite possibly, but then what? Open warfare in 2020?
“The whole world is watching”… and it’s an ugly spectacle.
8Here’s a WashPost columnist’s take on it:
“Sherman’s article didn’t provide robust new evidence that the election was hacked. What it did was provide logical justification for thinking the election was hacked.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/23/attention-democrats-theres-still-no-good-evidence-the-election-was-rigged/
In the past day or two I’ve seen numerous claims by commenters on online articles that 3 million illegals voted, all for Clinton, so Trump won the popular vote too. I don’t know who’s putting that out or which rear end they pulled it out of, but a lot of Trumpets are now sure it’s true. So any claims of hacking from our side would be even more fanatically resisted.
9Rhea, wish I was sufficiently optimistic to wish you well on your spaceflight. As close as Donnie comes to Nostradamus is Nonodumbass. However, he has tipped his hand. His recent ‘graciousness’ toward Hilz is a fairly good indicator that either he or his staff have a glimmer of a clue that they do not want to tangle with “Hell Hath No Fury ….”
Meanwhile back at Camp BLOTUS, it seems Donnie II is armpit deep in Ruskie shenanigans and sinking. Uday has some ‘splaining to do. http://crooksandliars.com/2016/11/russian-collaborator-trump-jr-met-russians
While his sister Cruella seems to have the modern day version of the Nixon problem. Tapes to phones in a mere 50 years, but crooks never change.
Elizabeth Moon, what you say. This mess is about to become a whole lot messier. Scary when the last remnant of optimism is the selfish ‘sense’ of the snacilbupeR to save their own skins. Could be that BLOTUS receives more blow back from the Cons in Congress than the Democrats.
10I agree with Elizabeth Mon. Unless we stop this abuse at elections, it will get worse. Our country will get worse. The gremlins will run the country. I stop and think of how many lives would be different (and exist) had Gore rightfully challenged the Bush win. He was told to shut up and sit down. He did. Hillary should not.
11Screw the White House dissent!
Russia should not be allowed to steal the election!
12There is no way that taking the “win” away from tRump will not end in violence. Hillary would always be considered, not just as illegitimate, but a usurper. She would never turn the tide at this point.
However, a Constitutional amendment to standardize federal elections is well overdo. If one could be written that is fair and sensible, with financing from the federal government, it has a shot.
Other than that’ I advise bidding our time. tRump will flame out soon enough, and Pence will be found to be wanting as well. The position we’re in now, all Americans, is perilous but endurable short term. Living through the consequences of recounts and such might not be.
13If the situation was reversed, what would Trump do? …Thought so.
14Generally, the person/party petitioning for a recount has to pay for it.Jill Stein will petition for a recount of MI, PA, and WI if she can raise the $2 million in fees by 4pm central on Friday.
https://jillstein.nationbuilder.com/recount
15Correction: Jill Stein is trying to raise $2.5 million in fees. She currently has almost $50,000 pledged.
16A civics test to qualify voters. Restore the definition of bribery and get money out of politics. Election day a weekend or holiday. Administer an oath before debates, and prosecute violators.
Easy peasy, really. We just have no will power left. It’s all used up on car deals and Black Friday.
17@charles r. phillips:”tRump will flame out soon enough…” Already is. Same-sex marriage is settled law. Won’t prosecute Hilary. No Muslim ban… etc., etc. This guy’s backpedaling faster than Michael Jackson!
The guiding principle through all of this will be: The Donald has been, is now, and forever shall be about Donnie and Donnie alone. He has used everybody and anybody for his purposes, his enhancement. He’s now on the world stage, not just the U.S. stage. That fact changes everything. He will do what gets the biggest applause. Knowing that is knowing how to control him. He’s played alot of people. He, too, can be played if you know how. Learn.
18HRC’s popular vote lead surpassed 2 million today.
19Demand a recount. It’s not over, and Trump is not President, until the Electoral College says it is. I’m expecting violence whether Trump or Clinton becomes president, so why can’t we have the president who actually won the election, whoever it turns out to be?
20An hour and a half later and Jill Stein is up to over $275,000 for the recounts.
https://jillstein.nationbuilder.com/recount
21There’s a new Facebook group calling itself “It Just Takes Forty”, referring to how many electoral changes would change the election. This was posted today, and I thought I’d share it with you.
The Department of Justice is tallying phone calls regarding those who want the 2016 Vote audited. A shift of just 55,000 Trump votes to Hillary in PA, MI & WI is all that is needed to win. They are starting to recognize there really is something off about the election results as they come in. Considering everything that is at stake, a vote audit should be done.
Please take one minute and call/email the DOJ – Department of Justice: 1-800-253-3931 (press 5) or 202-353-1555 (leave message) or email: voting.section@usdoj.gov
You don’t have to say the whole spiel over the phone, you can just ask your name to be added to the list requesting the investigation instead of going through the whole thing.
“My name is [first last name], I’m calling from [city],[state] to respectfully request you pursue an investigation into voter suppression, Russian collusion and FBI interference with the 2016 presidential election. Please issue an injunction until a thorough investigation can take place.”
The point is to provide the DOJ with numbers so they can say X number of Americans want an injunction. Short, sweet, polite does the trick.
The person posting this recommends calling because a paid human has to answer or retrieve voicemails.”
22Thanks for the info, AKLynne. My question is how to recount in states which do not have a paper trail. Here in PA, no ballots, just machines. Boy would I love to overturn those thieves, but how to do it?
23Jill Stein just passed $2M in less than 12 hours. Looks like there’s gonna be some recounts.
https://jillstein.nationbuilder.com/recount
24Actually, that is stunning good news for Hilary! A recount proceeds and SHE doesn’t have to be the lightning rod. I suppose Mr Obama is still playing three dimensional chess up there in the White House. What a guy…I wish I could think like that! OT, I’m beginning to cultivate a hatred for Nigel effen Farage that rivals my feelings for Dick Cheney and Paul Ryan! That mouthy little bit of British offal called Mr O “ghastly”; do you suppose he even recognizes himself in the mirror any more? Or maybe it’s just more conservative projection?
25The election is over. The winner has been announced. We got our butts whupped. We don’t get a do-over.
The electoral college will not “vote their consciences” and bypass Trump. (They’re mostly Repubs–it has not been proved that they have consciences.) And do we really want this small group empowered to set aside the results of an election and choose for themselves? That would undermine our entire election process.
The notion that hacking stole the election at this point is just a conspiracy theory. For one thing, what “experts?” Again, changing the election results by this means would undermine our election process. We need to fix it, not destroy it. Besides, do you really think the millions who voted for Trump would accept any evidence, no matter how good? Most of them don’t believe in global warming because they believe a few right-wing politicians over 97% of true experts.
It’s time to set aside questioning the election–which is rightfully a Trump tactic anyway and one we should avoid–and fix the Dem party. It’s hard to be enthusiastic about a party that doesn’t seem to believe in anything enough to fight for it. They’ve got their chance now. They could again become the party that fights to protect SS and Medicare, which are sure to be attacked.
Dems need to fight in the vein of Lyndon Johnson. It the Repubs fight dirty, the Dems should fight dirtier. If the Repubs scare voters over Muslims and immigrants and female/gay sexuality, the Dems should scare them even more over real issues. It’s unfortunate, but fear is one of the best motivators for voters. Dems need to use that or they will continue to lose elections they should win. Voters go with emotion, not logic.
26I respectfully disagree with you LynnN, for three reasons. Number 1, the 2000 election was not settled in a fair and impartial fashion. Number 2, the 2012 election was NEARLY tampered with (Ohio, Karl Rove’s epic meltdown on Fox News, and the end of Rove’s big time career). Number 3 is right now. 50% of the last four Presidential elections have been fiddled with for certain; it is unknown about 2004 and 2008- has anyone even looked? Did someone try? Who knows? Chris Wright presents a compelling argument on a baseball site (amateur statisticians all) and offers 3 – 1 odds that 2016 WAS tampered with, possibly by dear old Vlad Putin’s people. Dr. Alex Halderman, University of Michigan professor, notes an apparent anomaly tied to counties that have voter machines that leave no paper trail. So if there is ANY doubt at all, why should we NOT check, and check it right now? Maybe we find out the trend is related to something else all together, or maybe we find out that someone did cook the results. Then we figure out who, how, and what to do about it. I don’t want to wait four years or eight or twelve, all under gerrymandered republican rule, and find out that this has been going on since Diebold promised Dubya Bush he would get elected. It will be way too late by then, for a lot of people and a lot of things I hold dear. We ought to know whether there has been fraudulent activity or not so we can take action to correct any flaws and weaknesses in our system immediately. If we don’t we may not get another chance. That’s also why I am glad it is Dr. Stein and not Mrs. Clinton who is mounting the charge, so to speak.
27LynnN, feeling a “mixed message.” When do we fight for fair elections? Why would it be wrong to address everything involved as to why every vote was not counted as cast this election? Not saying we should or could overturn this disastrous result, but sooner rather than later is strikes me as a good time to begin fixing this mess.
Fight dirty? Can do. Do we start with “deport her now” every time TLOTUS appears with BLOTUS? For a start I suggest we demand the GAO and CBO reject every special snowflake request to absorb their living style. They can live in the White House as has every president done in modern times and send their kid to school in Dee Cee.
Sorry Barron, but moving in the middle of the school year does not impress me. Military families do it all the time. If your Daddy pretends to be CIC, he can start with yanking you out of your privileged school.
Maybe BLOTUS is incapable of acting presidential, but he can dayum well live like one.
28Jill Stein is about to blow past $4.5M in donations in a little over 24 hours. That’s enough to pay for the recount in WI and the filing fees for PA and MI. She will probably need around $7M total (filing fees plus attorneys costs, etc) for all three. Looks like this is going to happen.
LynnN, I could not disagree more. This election is not over. What the media announces is completely irrelevant. We don’t need a do-over; we need to follow the system. Which is exactly what Jill Stein is doing. We did not get our butts whupped. The American people clearly and unambiguously rejected Trump by over 2 million votes and counting. Trump has not yet won a single electoral vote. No one has. The electoral colleges do not meet until December 19. Every so-called reporter and spokesperson who says Trump has already won the electoral college is lying through their teeth. Will he get 270+ electoral votes when they do meet? Probably, but it is not a given. An admittedly small number of republican electors have already said they will not vote for Trump. Will they vote for Clinton? Who knows. Will the ones who have spoken up be replaced before their electoral college meets? Who knows. Will their numbers be enough to deny Trump 270 and throw it to the House of Representatives (who are not limited to Clinton and Trump and can install anyone)? Who knows. Will our next president be Paul Ryan? Possibly, god help us all.
“And do we really want this small group empowered to set aside the results of an election and choose for themselves? That would undermine our entire election process.” What we want is irrelevant. The Constitution is clear that this small group is intended and empowered specifically and for the sole purpose of setting aside the results of the election and choosing for themselves. This does not undermine our election process. This IS our election process. In the past, the electors have usually gone along with the popular vote of their state. The supreme court has held that political parties can require pledges and impose fines on electors that break their pledge. There was apparently one case where an “unfaithful elector’s” vote was rescinded and another submitted in its place. But I cannot find where that elector sued to challenge the issue and it appears that most legal scholars believe that rescinding his vote was unconstitutional. That is, he could be fined for breaking his pledge, but his original vote still should have been counted.
Basically, the electoral college was imposed for two reasons: so that the choice of president is not determined by the uneducated masses (i.e., so that ignorant voters don’t elect an unfit idiot) and to make sure that the predominantly white, smaller, then-slave states have a disproportionately larger say. Over the years, the electoral college procedures have become perverted to the point that if things go as they appear to be going the electoral college will override the will of the people *in order to* elect an unfit idiot.
Assuming that he was going to lose, Trump said that he would use every legal avenue available to him to challenge results that he thought were “unfair.” And only then would he decide whether he would accept the final outcome of the election. There is no question that democrats and team Clinton will accept the final outcome of the election. The question is whether they will fight to use all of the legal procedures available within our system that lead to that final determination or whether they will simply roll over and give up before the finish line.
This election is not over until December 19, at the earliest. That’s how our system works. Fighting so that the electoral college votes reflect the will of all the people (so that the votes of over 2M Americans are not treated as worthless because of where they live) is fair, not unfair. I’m disappointed that the Clinton team is not stepping forward to fight this fight. Their lack of any comment gives me hope that this is a strategic decision, which I can understand and would probably agree with.
In the end, the fact that Jill Stein has been able to raise so much money in such a short time is another clear sign that people are angry. If we had simply lost the election we would be hurt and while there would still be anger there would not be so much of it. It appears that this will be the second time in 16 years that a republican will be installed as president based on an admittedly constitutional technicality and against the will of the people. We’ve barely started to clean up the results of that mess and this time it will be far worse.
I for one want to use every legal means available to stop this disaster from happening. The laws and rules are there. Now we’ll see if the people who can will have the backbone to try to enforce them. In the end we may not succeed, but when something stinks this bad there is usually something nasty at the bottom of it that needs to be exposed.
I’m off to send Jill Stein another donation.
29I can understand Lynn’s mode of thinking. I’m optimistic that it is Stein and not Clinton or Obama leading this fight. However, let’s consider how this plays out. They will need to find a huge smoking gun here. I’m a subscriber to billjamesonline. I’m a big believer in numbers and love sabermetrics. It doesn’t take a bunch of arm twisting to convince me that something is wrong here. That being said, there is enough doubt to provide plausible deniability. So, let’s say they get a combined 100,000 votes switched. Then Trump’s people counter sue and we have ourselves an old fashioned constitutional crisis. What then?
30Scott, if they find incorrectly counted or uncounted votes then Trump can sue for whatever relief he wants (e.g., to have them thrown out, to have the count stopped, etc.). That is not a constitutional crisis. That’s just litigation. No doubt the courts would fast track it, just like they did in 2000. Once the suit(s) are resolved then their results are applied. If those results include enough votes for Clinton, then democratic and not republican electors go to each state’s electoral college on December 19 and (assuming all democratic electors vote for her) Clinton wins the cumulative electoral college. Trump and his goons throw a fit. But, again, that’s not a constitutional crisis. That’s being a sore loser, and no surprise.
Under our system, the outcome of the election does not occur until the electoral college votes, if then. Recounts and litigation over recounts are not challenges to the outcome of the election; they are merely some of the procedures (not always used or needed) by which we get to that outcome. When pundits say that election night is the outcome of the election they are wrong. But that never stops them. Usually the outcome will be as it appears on election night so their lack of accuracy doesn’t really matter. This time it does.
If nobody (Clinton, Trump, or anyone else) gets 270 electoral votes (a simple majority) on December 19, then it goes to the House. Having to follow the procedures established in the constitution (even if we rarely have to follow them this far) does not create a constitutional crisis, it’s just the way the system works.
A constitutional crisis would be if litigation was protracted and the final state results were not known such that a state’s electoral college could not meet on December 19 (the date set under the constitution). I can’t imagine that’s never happened before, but I haven’t come across it.
In the end, while the possibility exists, it is highly unlikely that petitioning for recounts will result in an actual constitutional crisis; though that phrase will no doubt be erroneously tossed around ad nauseum.
A constitutional crisis requires a violation (actual or perceived) of the constitution. It certainly looks like Trump (if elected by the electors or chosen by congress) will be in violation of one or more constitutional provisions from the moment he is inaugurated. If Trump gets in, constitutional crises are inevitable. The only question is whether and how many times congress and the DOJ will look the other way.
31Me myself,
I’m well aware of the process as an old government teacher. The difference in 2000 was that Gore relented in time for the electors to cast their ballots. If the recount produces a different result I don’t have that same faith in Trump. Plus, the 2000 results never switched in reality. Sure, the election isn’t really decided until December 19th, but the reality for most people will be that the system doesn’t work. If it gets tossed to the House then they aren’t bound to vote for anyone on the ballot. So, the three possible results are that we think there are discrepancies but can’t prove it, it gets reversed and he and his people throw a hissy fit, or it goes to the House and we get President Ryan. Sure, constitutional crisis might not be technically correct, but millions will lose faith in the system. That equals a crisis in my mind.
32