Do You Agree With This?
Any reasonable educated American supports removing Confederate monuments that celebrate one of the darkest chapters in our history. Only bigots support status quo because…you know, heritage; but in 2015, everything changed when the mass shooting at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston by a white supremacists shook the nation, and the monuments started coming down. The riots in Charlottesville Virginia this weekend that resulted in the deaths of one counter-protestor and two state troopers were propagated by the announcement of the removal of the statute of Robert E. Lee in a city park. You know, that statue was really important to our “heritage” and it’s just natural to just start beating and running over people with cars if someone wants to take it down, right? Of course.
The backlash of this weekend’s violence has been swift and loud. White supremacist demonstrators are being outed by activists and some fired by their employers for being racist assholes. Trump has once again been humiliated for being, you know, a racist asshole. Frustrated human rights advocates have taken matters into their own hands, and today toppled a confederate statue in Durham North Carolina:
Among some of my circle of friends, though they would like to see monuments like this gone from our city parks and streets, they disagree that they should be toppled by activists. I’ll admit I’m torn and wonder what others might think about this issue. Before you answer, look at these images:
The first image was taken in Berlin after it fell to the allies in WWII. Today, Berlin has been scrubbed clean of all Nazi monuments and even doing the Nazi salute is illegal. The second image is the famous photo of Saddam’s statue glorifying himself being destroyed after US troops entered Bagdad. I don’t think anyone would disagree with either of these actions. Why would destruction of monuments that glorify the oppressors of millions of human beings be treated any differently?
It’s not an easy question, and I have to say there was a certain satisfaction in watching that stature being pulled over on its head today by ordinary Americans. Do you agree?
Yes? No?
Yes.
1Pull them down, by any means necessary.
You don’t keep statues for losers. Right Trump?
Yes…but, be safe!
2I just learned that a white supremicist(sp?) group will be meeting at one of our convention hotels here in Colorado Springs on the 18th. It’s called VDare (Virginia Dare first child born in the US) started by a English Immigrant who is staunchly against non-white immigration. God, I don’t know where these people come from that have the attitude I got mine and everyone else should get screwed. The hotel isn’t open to cancelling, they have stated that they do not involve themselves in their customers business or message. I am tempted to go as a counter protester.
3https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2017/08/09/white-nationalist-vdare-hosting-conference-colorado-breitbart-columnist/217572
And, oh yes I agree.
4Statues of Confederate soldiers should be as rare as statues of Benedict Arnold and both should be celebrated with equal zeal.
5Tear them down.
6I love the smell of common ground in the morning. Smells like togetherness. …Seriously.
7Had to laugh watching them run up to kick the statue and t!hen hobble off. What did they expect? It is a hunk of metal
8Agree with the toss of the Nazi symbol and Saddam ego-sculpture. I have lived in and around D.C. for more than 40 years. As much as I love and adore horses, there are way the hell too many conquering heroes on horseback statues around here. I’m all for keeping the horse part but the rest can go. And one very easy way to get rid of whatever is to plant ivy. It will cover whatever you want in no time and as a plant, it will add to the clean air!
9When you lose a war you do not get to keep your symbols.
10They were traitors. There is no reason for them to be treated with respect and veneration. Tear them down, send to to private owners, whatever.
That is not at all the same as forgetting history.
11Guess I’ll speak up for following a removal process that is either led by responsible governing authorities or that results from consensus.
I’d rather see theses statues and memorials gone tomorrow. Still, I realize they are a powerful symbol of a deep problem in our society but they are not the problem.
12At first I wanted the statues to stay and a general plaque put under them.
“This statue is what happens when millions of people hang on to the absolute wrong side of a shameful history that only existed for four years. American slavery existed for two-hundred forty-five years. Someone trying to hold African-Americans in bondage was what this statue is celebrating. Learn from the confederacy evil and do not repeat.”
But forget all that . . . Just to be safe when they pull these statues down, salt the gaping hole where they used to be and tell the confederate loving idiots its got multicultural germs that are liable to destroy their sperm if they come within fifty miles of it.
13I’ll admit to mixed feelings about Robert E. Lee & Stonewall Jackson, though they only have a place in historical context – like their birthplaces, where the story of that gruesome chapter of history can be told in context. They have no place on college campuses, capitols, etc., and I’m pleased the usual laudatory monuments are coming down. But scrubbing our history clean of all references to slavery, and the war over it, only makes future generations ignorant….I think. I’m just not sure of the best way to make sure we remember and do not repeat past sins.
In my hometown there’s a monument with the names of the young people who died in that war on it. It always seemed to me a reminder of the waste of war, and I would not want it taken down….it’s so inexpressively sad, ‘winners’ or ‘losers’. But especially for the southerners….what a thing to die for – fighting for a system in which you died for an economic system that only served the wealthy.
And that’s a lesson in history this country currently needs.
14Lincoln and his administration only saw R.E. Lee as a traitor and turned Lee’s plantation into Arlington National Cemetery “to punish Lee and shame him in public memory for betraying the United States.”
Most of these “statues date not from the Civil War Era but from the decades of the establishment of Jim Crow, to celebrate the South’s ability to establish an apartheid system on the ruins of the Antebellum slave South. A statue of Lee in uniform, mounted on a horse in a southern town square has only ever had one meaning: white supremacy.”
https://t.co/CpS8u8yxZZ has a full description.
15Tear them down – safely – but tear them down.
16Please that I understand and respect the opinions expressed here. I believe there are lessons in history that needs to be remembered. Just because we may decided to banish every monument and statue that represent a shameful time in history, will removing those monuments really quell the racism and the hatred? I think not. Through out history, countries have tried to erase the physical reminders of culture, conflict and regime change. Germany and ISIS come to mind. Has removing all traces of Hitler wiped out the neo-nazis in Germany? No. If our country goes forward with destroying these historical monuments, what will be left for those who need to learn how not to repeat history again?
17If you are not familiar with Trae Crowder and the Liberal Rednecks, please check them out on YouTube. Trae’s comment on Charlottesville includes the term “Participation Trophies” for Confederate monuments. I intend to use that from now on.
And yes I am the great great granddaughter of a confederate soldier.
18Thanks, G Foresight for the history lesson. That was what I suspected, but I hadn’t had a chance to look it up. As I understand it, the “confederate” flag was from the Jim Crow era, too–not used by the CSA at all.
And yes, Alice Beth, Trae Crowder is great!
19Robert E. Lee if he were alive today would be in favor of getting rid of all symbols of the Confederacy.
20AliceBeth:
I have ancestors that served on each side for the union and the confederacy.
21Statues are not educational in any sense that I currently understand the word educational. They honor a well-loved historical figure. These statues of losing traitors to the United States as it existed in 1861, are there at present to remind non-whites and women of the supremacy of white males. My 2017 self is surprised that the civil rights movement of the 1960s and the women’s movement of the 1970s did not demand their removal in those decades. I spose the leaders of the time had bigger issues with which to deal at the time.
As I posted elsewhere, the only symbol of the 1861-1865 rebellion that I could tolerate on the public square is a replica of one of the white flags the traitors might have used when they sued for peace. And as much as I admire President Lincoln and tolerate President Andy Johnson, they should have ordered that the traitors swing from a rope ‘neath the bought of a nodding oak tree as suitable punishment for their acts of secession and rebellion. After a suitable trial of course.
Photographs in the newspapers of Jefferson Davis in chains going to a military prison might have impressed on the rebellious states that they had lost. Going back to their farms as if nothing had happened has allowed the perpetuation of this “sincerely held beliefs” bull$hit about slavery to arrive in 2017.
22NO! An argument can be made for the removal of statues by the proper level of government, but you cannot make a reasonable argument for the wanton destruction of public property.
23As much as I would like the statues which celebrate confederate soldiers, I fear the alt-right might retaliate by destroying the monuments we have to herald heroes who stood for civil rights, democracy and those who fought against fascism and lost their lives doing so.
24Elected city officials should make the decision about removing these monuments and citizens should make the strongest case possible for their removal. Vandalism is not the answer
As much as would like the statues which celebrate confederate soldiers removed…..
25Sorry I didn’t finish that sentence.
In Germany, they took the statues down because Hitler lost. In the South, the statues remain because the Confederacy… Oh, that’s right. They didn’t win. They surrendered. Unconditionally. What the he’ll are these statues doing there in the first place?
26I generally don’t approve of the proactive destruction of public property, symbolism aside.
But this particular action warmed the cockles of my heart. A nice, tidy act of civil disobedience, with nobody injured, except for the guys who overzealously kicked the statue. A symbol of racism and oppression, literally toppled from its pedestal. What’s not to like?
In the event that the topplers are prosecuted and fined, I’m sure that many people will donate to cover their legal fees. I sure would.
27From the old country:
Großer Friedrich, steig hernieder, und regiere Preußen wieder. Lass’ in diesen miesen Zeiten, den Bundeskanzler weiterreiten.
G Washington get off and run the country again, let in these troubled times the Great Orange one ride. A rough paraphrase.
Altenatively don’t cast aspersions (asparagus?) On all those statues. Recycle the bronze for ammunition, surely the alt-right can’t disagree with a well armed military.
28No, I don’t agree with it.
I can’t tell you why–words don’t exist for the feelings I have–but I can tell you this is different from banning the stars and bars.
29@djw: What is usually called the Confederate flag is actually a flag-shaped representation of the battle flag of Robert E. Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia–except that the actual battle flag was square. Some form of Lee’s battle flag was widely used by other Southern armies.
I would like to see most of the statues of Civil War “heroes” taken down, except for, perhaps, those in their home towns or at the sites of battles in which they fought. The statues of Confederate soldiers in town squares which list the names of the town’s dead in the Civil War, should, in my opinion, be left alone.
30I’m for their removal by administrative decision, not by activist toppling.
I think about how I would feel if someone tore down something I cared about because they disagreed with it. I would be angry and probably feel impotently vengeful. If it were removed through a political process during which my protests could be heard, that would be different.
Similarly, in the context of hotels refusing to rent space to white supremacists, or ISPs shutting down web sites, it sounds awfully similar to bakers not making cakes for LGBT weddings: refusing service to people whose lifestyles you disagree with. I don’t think that’s a good idea.
If those businesses are held responsible for the content of the speech (as ISPs are sometimes expected to be), then I think they have to be able to refuse service, but if they are not, then I think the hateful speech needs to be heard and challenged vigorously. We can boycott the venues to pressure them to refuse service for business reasons, but I don’t want them imposing their views on the organizations that rent from them just because they can.
Does that make any sense?
31If you want to puke read this:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/newt-gingrich-mayors-pander-black-103736940.html
32We should never forget the civil war, statues are art, statues are reminders. we would hope that some one viewing a statue of a hero of the south would wonder who this person was, maybe look them up and learn some thing about the history of the civil war. we should not try and hide this part of our history.
33For years people have wanted to remove a statue on the grounds of the Maryland State House. We went to college in Annapolis, and every time I walked by that statue I gave it the finger. It’s Roger Taney, the SCOTUS justice who wrote the Dred Scott decision in 1857, saying that blacks were not American citizens and had “no rights the white man is bound to respect.” Looks like it might finally be removed this time.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/md-politics/md-state-leaders-pressed-to-remove-controversial-statue/2017/08/14/9c03748a-8106-11e7-ab27-1a21a8e006ab_story.html
There’s another statue of him in Baltimore, and the mayor has said she wants all the Confederate statues in the city removed, that one included.
A descendent of Taney apologized to a descendent of Scott on the State House grounds this spring. “A Taney bringing an apology to a Scott is like ‘bringing a bandaid to an amputation,’ ” Charlie Taney quoted his daughter as saying. “An apology is not enough,” he said. “But it is necessary.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/from-a-descendant-of-roger-taney-to-a-descendant-of-dred-scott-im-sorry/2017/03/06/d2871308-0286-11e7-b1e9-a05d3c21f7cf_story.html
34I’d like to see them removed, and put into museums or otherwise used as teaching aids so that people can engage with our history, as sad and shameful as it has sometimes been.
It’s not good enough to just yank them down and pave over the spot. You can’t neuter history.
They should be removed by common consent, and it should be the representatives of the people who order their removal. We should not only remove them, but we should be seen removing them. We should construct a narrative about why they are being removed, and it should include all of us.
35Since these same people that are so attached to their MONUMENTS (important word, monument, not merely art or history) waste a lot of our time and money to argue for revising textbooks used by ALL our children in order to water down the truth about 1) The War of Nothern Aggression, or Why We Defended States Rights, AND 2) the truth about the age of the earth and the natural processes that govern it, AND 3) that climate change which affects the whole damn worldis a “liberal lie”, I say take ’em down! The sooner the better! Let their “heritage” be handed down in their own families like the myth it is. Plant a nice live oak instead, it will last longer! Growl!
36Yes to pulling down. No to committing an act of vandalism to do it. Supposed there were injuries? Property damage aside from the statue? Get the thing taken down safely and hauled away to make urinals, or better, homes for the homeless (sure there are latches or hinges made of that metal).
37Annabelle Lee, I totally agree. Hey, that has a nice beat to it. If we have a tantrum and knock over statues, should we burn up books with a mention of any bad guys? Should we change the names of states where bad things happened? I prefer museums and books both fiction and non-fiction about why we decided to get rid of the sculptures. Or not. We would have a barren country if we only talked about the sweet and beautiful.
38I am torn also. Saying that since they have become so infamous lately removal is necessary. I do think they should not be toppled like a war criminal. Perhaps covered and safely removed by the government would be more dignified remember they were Americans too. Let us not turn into hateful people when taking about their removal. Spoken by a Northern ancestors who fought and died in the Civil War.
39Was Ronald Reagan remembered for saying “Mr Gorbachev, leave that wall standing as an historical monument to a moment in history. And all you Germans, East or West, just stay where you are, until the administrative authorities decide how best to use all this concrete and brick. Stop painting graffiti on it too.”
40Thanks for the various opinions above. LOVE the phrase ‘neutering history’, and the idea of moving some of these statues to historic parks with educational plaques about the REAL issues of the time (as in ‘states rights’ meant the right of some states to allow human beings to be owned like livestock), and about this movement to remove them from public spaces. There are really good ideas here….how can we get them acted on?
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