The Human Problem
I predicted somewhere (I’m not sure if it was here) that the gambit of using the 14th amendment to bar Trump from appearing on the ballot was not going to work ultimately. For the time being we are going to ignore the obvious pollicization of the court and just look at the law before them. My fears were realized when the attorney general of Missouri pulled the stunt I had been waiting for all along.
For those that don’t want to go down the rabbit hole, the attorney general is threatening to hold Joe Biden’s name off of the ballot in Missouri. Has Biden participated in an insurrection or done anything illegal? Of course not. He all but admitted as such. When the provision for the 14th amendment was written, it was written in such a way for a specific purpose. Belonging to the Confederacy was by itself proof that you had participated in an insurrection. So, the authors of that amendment left it up to the states and ultimately the attorneys general to make the call.
The problem is two-fold. First, what mechanism does that person use to determine whether someone can legally seek the office? Donald Trump has not been charged with insurrection and was officially found not guilty by the Senate. So, how does one reach that determination? Forget the fact that we all watched it unfold in front of our eyes on national television. Forget that the January 6th committee has already uncovered more than enough evidence to show that it happened and that he spearheaded it. Forget that the majority of the 91 counts that he has been charged with in three of the four jurisdictions are directly or indirectly related to it. Is there actual proof in a court of law? If not, who decides on the facts and what they mean?
While what Missouri (or one man in Missouri) is proposing is preposterous, it does highlight a problem. It is a human one. You can write all the laws you want and you can write them as carefully and clearly as you like. It still relies on someone or a group executing that law.
This fundamental failure is on two groups of people. The first guilty party is the Republican party. They could have stopped this nonsense at any point. They could have done it in 2015 when he decided to run. They could have done it any number of moments during his reign of terror. They could have done it immediately after he left office at the second impeachment trial. They could have simply said you aren’t running anymore. They could do it now. I’m not sure what the Democratic party would do under the same circumstances. I really can’t say because there has never been a Donald Trump before. It is a uniquely Republican problem at this point in history. The Democrats have tried to bail them out in multiple instances and they refuse to take the lifeline.
The second group of people are the voters themselves. This isn’t about liberal or conservative anymore. Values are values after all and he is a man that has none. I remember talking to a former colleague (that I have snoozed on Facebook) that argued that he was a honorable man with a ton of positive qualities. I dared him to name one. He couldn’t. He couldn’t because you can’t. It was never about him or the positive qualities he supposedly possesses.
The Supreme Court will likely strike down Colorado’s decision. They will do it for craven and political reasons, but they will also have legal and ethical ones. In a democracy can we allow one person to determine someone’s fitness for office? Wouldn’t that be antithetical to what we are at our core? I know people want to find some way to save us from ourselves. I get that completely. Unfortunately, there is no easy way out. We will have to vanquish this pit stain of a human being the old-fashioned way. The GOP certainly isn’t going to do it. Our courts might catch up to him one day, but ultimately it will have to be us. Buckle up folks. It will be a bumpy ride.
Colorado had a trial that spent five days hearing evidence (which Trump tried to stop), and the trial court found that he engaged in insurrection by “clear and convincing” evidence – one of the highest standards of proof. The district court ruled in Trump’s favor, however, under the idea that the Presidency is not an “office” nor is the President an “officer.” That district court ruling was then reversed by a divided Colorado Supreme Court.
1Can a Capitalistic Democracy really survive?
Is our Rule of Law strong enough? If we can’t enforce our Laws or we don’t apply the Rule of Law to everyone, then we obviously don’t have a functional democracy and it won’t last long.
Lock tRump up!!!!
14th amendment sec 3 stuff …
Not to mention it doesn’t have to define insurrection because tRump is glaring guilty of
” shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.”
“or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof.” you say???
Why yes, read my lips …
“”We’ll be looking very, very seriously at full pardons,” Trump told an interviewer in 2022. “I mean full pardons with an apology to many.”
2“LET THE JANUARY 6 PRISONERS GO,” Trump posted on his social media site, Truth Social, in March 2023.
Later that year, Trump reposted a Truth Social post stating, “The cops should be charged and the protesters should be freed.”
I was a ball of tension about tRump leaving the White House. I had a bad feeling about that guy, such as he would leave the People’s House booby-trapped with bombs so it would suddenly burst into flame after he was on board an airplane to Florida. He didn’t like the White House. Hell, look how he treated it, especially in the Oval Office private dining room throwing food on the wall when he had a two year old type tantrum. It never, ever occurred to me that he would actually take on a fortress using his minions as ammunition. I wonder how the MAGAs would react if he had ordered them to destroy the mansion. Going after the Capitol would be like Brits going after Buckingham palace. Unbelievable! What I also don’t get is that the attack on the Capitol created the MAGAs own self-destruction. DOJ is not ever going to quit hunting down all those that need to be seen before a judge.
3I think you’re right, Nick. I also agree with lex above, but I think the supremes will formally rule that trumpf cannot be barred from being on the ballot by any state. I also think they’ll agree he had presidential immunity for his actions while in office. That’ll pretty much void the 14th amendment’s use going forward and wipe out many of the indictments against him.
4Much of the repugnantican party belongs to a cult where reality no longer exists and anything der leader says, they will follow without question. What do R congress critters think about their party when they try to go to sleep at night, those with any rational brain cells left? At least some have to hate their party.
There was a letter to the editor of the Oregonian yesterday that basically said no state can keep Trump off the ballot because he hasn’t been convicted. Unfortunately (my opinion), none of his legal issues will be resolved before the election. The writer basically said that while Trump is a lowlife, he’ll still vote for him. Bottom line, most repugnanticans hate Democrats so much that they’d rather vote for a fraud, liar, indicted criminal, sexual predator and yes, someone that mobilized supporters to violently overthrow an election. And he’s still promoting violence. It’s a cult.
That’s true Mollusk. Colorado dealt with it in a responsible manner. However, there is no established method outlined in the amendment. That was a simply a person (their AG) that decided to establish their own standard above and beyond what is prescribed. As honorable and laudable as that was, what we are seeing in Missouri outlines the problem.
The problem is that the right has largely abandoned the rule of law. So, it doesn’t matter what evidence you bring forward or what methods you used to arrive at that evidence. They will simply use the mechanism.
5Steve from Beaverton: if SCOTUS rules that a president has absolute immunity for acts committed while in office, even criminal acts, then Joe Biden can do any damn thing he wants for the next year and fourteen days. He can order the Secret Service to break Trump’s kneecaps and throw him out of a helicopter from 15,000 feet. And nobody can touch Joe Biden.
Much as I distrust SCOTUS (with clear examples of corruption by Alito and Thomas) I think the court is overall smart enough to realize that absolute immunity for Trump means absolute immunity for Biden. And I think they don’t want to go there.
6Slipstream, hope you’re right but with this batch of supremes, giving them the benefit of the doubt is out till they prove otherwise. The majority of the court is more concerned about their ideology than reason and law. Throw in 3-4 of them with grudges about being called out for their ethics and honesty and you get my skepticism. Like the R house of vengeance, there’s some of that in the SCOTUS.
7Hans Christian Anderson wrote a short story, The Emperor’s New Clothes.
The weavers convinced everyone in the kingdom:
“… the clothes manufactured… have the wonderful property of remaining invisible to everyone who was unfit for the office he held, or who was extraordinarily simple in character.”
The news weavers today have at their disposal entire “news” networks, as well as many Evangelical religious leaders with willing listeners convinced they’ll be against God, or in favor of communism, socialism, or God forbid – – taxes if they even listen to the other side of the story. At first they believe they see something that isn’t there, but after awhile they believe it is real. Because no human being wants to “see” Donald Trump in his underwear.
8I feel another essay coming on but it’s the difference between correct and right. The right is convinced they are right despite all the evidence to the contrary. So, even when they see with their own eyes they cannot admit they were wrong. We (the left) can certainly be wrong but are generally more concerned with the correct answer. When new evidence suggests we change we are generally more open to change. The other side views that as weakness or dishonesty.
9So, I just read that the insurrectionist on J6 are not prisoners but hostages ? How? Is the entire Republican world stupid? I used to think that Republicans were just conservatives. Since the advent of TFG I am getting more and more convinced that they are thugs, idiots and morons (redundant? perhaps but it bears repeating) If you are innocent and hae done nothing wrong why would you need pardoning, why would you have 91 count against you, why would you have to keep lying, why would you even need an attorney *ok, you could need an attorney if you did nothing wrong……….but LOCK HIM THE F UP!!
10Slipstream, I’m going to trust that you’re right–giving Trump the immunity he wants would also give it to Joe Biden. I doubt that Joe would order the Secret Service to murder Trump and dispose of his corpse (although that would solve a BUNCH of problems), except in my dreams; but I don’t think that even this Court is that stupid. I hope. . . .
I’d like to think that Trump will end his days in prison. If he doesn’t, whatever happens to him will demonstrate that, yes, there really is a two-tier system of justice in this country (at least)–one for rich white men, and at least one other for the rest of us. The rule of law needs to prevail, or our democratic experiment will fail. If Trump succeeds, someone else will try to do what he’s doing.
11As a legal matter, the text of the clause of the 14th amendment is pretty clear. If one is a strict constructionist then you would have to uphold the ruling. The alternative is to consider the clause to be unconstitutional which would be considering a part of the constitution as unconstitutional. I would love to see how they would work around that logical riddle.
As a practical matter I would say that a clarification needs to be added. There needs to be some sort of established process to determine that someone has participated in insurrection. As others have pointed out. Colorado went through such a process and Maine did too to a lesser extent. It would just have to be outlined and established so that this Missouri jackass can stop his bloviating.
12Unlike the other Amendments, the 14th has no language authorizing Congress to propose, argue and pass promulgating legislation. The 14th stands on its own, clear language for STATES to act. The Supreme Court has an additional ausfhart {exit ramp) to use. The Constitution is silent on political parties; they are not even mentioned … much less regulated.
13Trump’s lawyers today told a panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit that a sitting or former president cannot be criminally prosecuted for ordering the assassination of a political rival.
Yep, he wants to be Putin.
14Again, a major key point that clinches this whole matter, and even elevates it to meet the standard of treason and traitorous conduct itself:
Then President Donald John Trump, on January 6th, 2021, at his gathering of MAGAots on the Ellipse, KNEW THAT MANY OF THEM WERE ARMED!
Trump was advised by the US Secret Service officers BEFORE he spoke that many of the attendees seeking admission at the entrance were being found to be carrying FIREARMS, and were being denied entrance.
Trump actually tried to order and override the SS, and argued at length that he wanted HIS PEOPLE ADMITTED, ARMED or not, to the secured White House grounds regardless of their carrying of weapons!
He even brought this matter up with the SS later on during his speech.
The Secret Service ignored his orders and kept the armed MAGAots outside the fence around the Ellipse area, where they could still participate.
DJ Trump KNEW that as he exhorted his MAGAot minions to leave the Ellipse and MARCH down to the US CAPITOL, for the stated purpose of preventing the election certification process, that significant numbers of them were ARMED and could do great damage to the convening Congress!
Such incitement to the armed overthrow of OUR US government is not just ‘leading and inciting an INSURRECTION, it meets the Constitutional definition of TREASON, defined in the same Art III, Sec 3.
That Donald John Trump is guilty of this is beyond question. Why are none of the prosecutorial authorities not making this point? Or discussed in the media? There were many witnesses to this.
It must be brought up as part of the SCOTUS arguments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason_laws_in_the_United_States
“Definition: In Article III, Section 3 of the United States Constitution, treason is specifically limited to ***levying war against the U.S.***, or adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.[2]…
15Levying war means the assembly of armed people to overthrow the government or to resist its laws. Enemies are subjects of a foreign government that is in open hostility with the United States.[6] Treason does not distinguish between participants and accessories; all persons who rebel or intentionally give aid to hostilities are subject to the same charge.[7] “
You don’t have to twist my arm Sandridge. I’m generally anti-death penalty but treason is treason. Is that firing squad, hanging, or lethal injection? My only thought is that Jack Smith and company wanted to go with what they could prove easiest AND fastest. I can’t disagree given that a conviction before November gives us the best shot for any of this to matter. The MAGAs don’t care and wouldn’t care if treason were kicked in. That trial would likely move into 2025. This is what happens when upwards of 40 percent has lost their ever loving minds.
16slipstream @13
“sitting or former president cannot be criminally prosecuted”
As people are pointing out, if Trump gets what he wants, he also gives Biden carte blanche to do whatever he wants during the next year without consequences. Like stay in office no matter the 2024 election results, or appoint Harris the next president without repercussions. We’d have Democratic presidents forever.
17Nick @15, Valid points. But these facts and offenses need to be brought up and used publicly over and over to –enhance– the seriousness of his criminality in the everyday public sphere.
That’s how effective PR works.
The average Joe has a very short attention span, and is very limited in critical thinking abilities and just plain ‘connect the effing dots, dummy’ stuff.
Without constant repetition of plain simple soundbite type refrains, they will remain oblivious to the seriousness and facts involved.
Then, on the off chance that DJT actually is found guilty in time, the ones that are already in the tRump tank will reality lose their ‘minds’ [dijiot is already making more noise about ‘uprisings’ and stuff, plus arguing that being a criminal is A-OK].
But others, on the fence, might begin to change their opinions in the correct direction.
Without these issues being constantly covered nothing changes.
The Rethugs are masters of this kind of PR, factual exposure, or manipulation it you want to call it that.
The Democrats simply have to use some more effective outreach, with this issue part of that.
This is a titanic struggle, we have to make sure that they are the ones going to the bottom.
Even if ‘when they go low, we go lower’ has to be done; at least for the duration.
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In my gawdforsaken part of S TX it’s more like 80-85% have lost their effing ‘minds’. There is no way to break through with these critters.
I foray onto the local Nextdoor just to bait them once in a while ;] . They usually get away with spouting all kinds of RWNJ stuff, even though it’s ‘against the rules’. I jump in and get all kinds of flak, and ‘disappeareds’…
Keep up the good work, it’s much appreciated.
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